Is Crude Oil ready for a nose dive?
Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Economy, Markets and commodities
Forum Name: Crude & Agri commodities
Forum Discription: It is feared that if no new "large" oil fields are discovered we will soon run out of crude similar supply shocks are expected in coffee, corrn and sugar
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1660
Printed Date: 19/Apr/2025 at 3:06pm
Topic: Is Crude Oil ready for a nose dive?
Posted By: rudra
Subject: Is Crude Oil ready for a nose dive?
Date Posted: 12/Mar/2008 at 11:16pm
This will be my first post started by me after I got a status of Groupie.
I have uploaded a full professional study for Crude Oil to below link BUT it is a password protected file,I shall share password with those who are really interested to know and sharing useful Info here and spare their valued time in discussion OR with those who trade in MCX OR with those ref.to me by our Dear Basantji.
One clarification,this work is NOT mine but from one of the world's best analyst who is far far superior than we have ever heard or seen.
http://rapidshare.com/files/99014923/CrudeOil.zip.html
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Replies:
Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 12/Mar/2008 at 11:25pm
you could just post some of the highlights of that report here , thats enough for us to get an idea of where crude is heading.thanking you.
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 12/Mar/2008 at 12:08pm
Dear tigershark thx for your reply,only Basant will share password being an admin of the forum.
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 12/Mar/2008 at 1:45am
And today it just tested the upper line,imho game is On from tomorrow- big daddy and fed will do their best to bring oil down.check below image.
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 10:04pm
Very Very interesting game is going on in Oil and it looks "someone"is keen to dump oil at each rise.Keeping my fingures acrossed and watching it.
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Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by rudra
Very Very interesting game is going on in Oil and it looks "someone"is keen to dump oil at each rise.Keeping my fingures acrossed and watching it. |
Hi,
I have never taken interest in charts or technicals. I admire many who rely there decisons on trends and charts.
Have u Rudra benefited from charting?
Have u in real life made money charting and following technicals?
One of my friend does this and told me that whatever was made in last tow years was wiped off. This was one month back.
JM
------------- I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.
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Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by rudra
Very Very interesting game is going on in Oil and it looks "someone"is keen to dump oil at each rise.Keeping my fingures acrossed and watching it. |
Is it really possible to know this from a chart? Wow. !
Can anyone, after looking at charts exactly know if someone is keen to dump anything (say Oil) at every rise.
Wow. If it is possible, i wud like to learn.
Really, if it is so simple.
Best wishes,
JM
------------- I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.
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Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 11:27pm
my 2 paise ...trends work...technicals which we see on TV are extremely short sighted ones I think. The data for trends and technicals differ as I know.
------------- Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap
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Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by nitin_jagtap
my 2 paise ...trends work...technicals which we see on TV are extremely short sighted ones I think. The data for trends and technicals differ as I know. |
Dear Nitin,
Trends Always work. If we are able to identify trends, we can easily make lots of money. The trend that i am talking abt is not based on charts or some other technicals but the real trend of businesses-industries. I am talking abt the main street not the stock street trends.
What i mean is whether anybody can really really profit from charts. or identify trends continuously.
Many people talk abt technicals. I have yet to meet a very rich chartist-techincal person. There may be few on TED. I wud like to meet them. Pl introduce yourselves.
Best wishes
------------- I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 8:32am
The day you come across or meet some guru who knows TA with "EMPTY MIND"he will tell you how good it is,I many times said that TA is a science and not just support or resistance but those who don't know ABC of it,keeps talking(in general,not beamed to any specific person/s) and result we are seeing on collapse of stock markets around the world.
Originally posted by Janak.merchant1
Originally posted by rudra
Very Very interesting game is going on in Oil and it looks "someone"is keen to dump oil at each rise.Keeping my fingures acrossed and watching it. |
Hi,
I have never taken interest in charts or technicals. I admire many who rely there decisons on trends and charts.
Have u Rudra benefited from charting?
Have u in real life made money charting and following technicals?
One of my friend does this and told me that whatever was made in last tow years was wiped off. This was one month back.
JM |
P.S:-Thanks Basant.
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 13/Mar/2008 at 10:26am
One of my friend cum excellent adviser cum expert sent me below alert along with his institutional clients today early morning in my mailbox.Most of times he is dead right so let's see how he goes this time.
Note:-Do your own diligence before you trade in any stock or commodity.
Fifth in a fifth
Now there are 4 consecutive wave degrees in an uptrend that have a probability of completing
five waves! For picking a top this is an important alert, but be careful.
The more patterns of different wave degrees show 5 waves that are completing,
the higher the probability that a major reversal is just around the corner.
This is an early warning so prices could still rise further if the patterns extend, check other
indications of an ending trend as well. Active traders should focus on smaller
wave degrees starting from Minor or minute. The summary inspector will give its first indications
when the smallest wave degrees (at the bottom) change to negative.
The target is the area of the previous 4th wave, normally the extreme of this 4th wave will be reached.
------------------------------------------------
Action : Short/sell
Applies to :
1st Wave degree :SuperCycle
% signals wave 3 :81.7308
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :18.2692
2nd Wave degree :Cycle
% signals wave 3 :64.1509
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :35.8491
3rd Wave degree :Primary
% signals wave 3 :88.1743
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :11.8257
4th Wave degree :Intermediate
% signals wave 3 :78.7464
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :16.0020
[trading]
Fifth in a fifth
Now there are 4 consecutive wave degrees in an uptrend that have a probability of completing
five waves! For picking a top this is an important alert, but be careful.
The more patterns of different wave degrees show 5 waves that are completing,
the higher the probability that a major reversal is just around the corner.
This is an early warning so prices could still rise further if the patterns extend, check other
indications of an ending trend as well. Active traders should focus on smaller
wave degrees starting from Minor or minute. The summary inspector will give its first indications
when the smallest wave degrees (at the bottom) change to negative.
The target is the area of the previous 4th wave, normally the extreme of this 4th wave will be reached.
------------------------------------------------
Action : Short/sell
Applies to : Insitutional investors
1st Wave degree :Cycle
% signals wave 3 :64.1509
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :35.8491
2nd Wave degree :Primary
% signals wave 3 :88.1743
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :11.8257
3rd Wave degree :Intermediate
% signals wave 3 :78.7464
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :16.0020
4th Wave degree :Minor
% signals wave 3 :70.9318
% signals wave 4 :0
% signals wave 5 :29.0682
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 17/Mar/2008 at 7:47pm
Posted By: ndzapak
Date Posted: 24/Mar/2008 at 9:26pm
Well this one's straight from the horses' mouth
Double-digit oil price is history: R S Sharma ( CMD, ONGC)
Oilonomics has gone haywire. The rise in oil prices has now started to hurt. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/View_Point/Double-digit_oil_price_is_history_R_S_Sharma/articleshow/2892602.cms - - - Crude - price increased five-fold in five years (from $22 per barrel in 2003); doubling in just fourteen months (from $54 per barrel in January 2007 to $110 per barrel in March 2008).
OPEC signals the long-term floor benchmark to be around $90 per barrel. But the charged oil market, with its historical complexities, cannot offer anything except a further flaring in the price. I strongly believe double-digit http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/View_Point/Double-digit_oil_price_is_history_R_S_Sharma/articleshow/2892602.cms - - - oil is already history.
OPEC has around 73% of the world’s proven oil reserves. One-third of the world’s http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/View_Point/Double-digit_oil_price_is_history_R_S_Sharma/articleshow/2892602.cms - - - oil comes from just three countries: Saudi Arabia, the Russian Federation and the US. Half of the world’s oil production comes from the 100 largest fields, almost all more than 25 years old. Discoveries of new giant fields are becoming rarer. Out of 85 million bpd oil production today, only 15 million bpd come from new finds and day-by-day incremental demand is outstripping incremental supply.
Now, many oil geologists believe that 90% of the globe’s oil fields have already been tapped and many are already exhausted. This is reflected in the report cards of oil MNCs. Reserve replacement ratios (RRR) for most, if not all, is less than one. These fundamental and non-fundamental factors have a cause-and-effect relationship.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/View_Point/Double-digit_oil_price_is_history_R_S_Sharma/articleshow/2892602.cms - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/View_Point/Double-digit_oil_price_is_history_R_S_Sharma/articleshow/2892602.cms
------------- the Equitydesk is the best
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Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 26/Mar/2008 at 1:53pm
Fwiw....
A reminder to fellow guys who track Crude.
The US Hurricane season 2008 is coming up and I would appreciate any links/news/info on that matter!
------------- You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!
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Posted By: rudra
Date Posted: 26/Mar/2008 at 1:36am
Its way far BV,starts after July and I shall post all links which I have stored with me rest assure.
Originally posted by BubbleVision
Fwiw....
A reminder to fellow guys who track Crude.
The US Hurricane season 2008 is coming up and I would appreciate any links/news/info on that matter!
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Posted By: rakeshmehta48
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2008 at 9:30pm
In the short run, crude will get support mainly by macro investment flows rather than internal fundamentals
------------- Fund Management is Most Important
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Posted By: rakeshmehta48
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2008 at 10:16pm
S&P has been bumping up against 1372 during past 4-5 sessions and not able to settle above convincingly.
Dollar Index has a lackluster rally during past month.
This gives the impression that smart money that was expected to shift out of emerging market equities and commodities into US Equities, is not willing to proceed at full throttle.
This may help commodities, including crude, for the time being.
------------- Fund Management is Most Important
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 25/Jun/2008 at 9:27pm
Crude Oil Down almost US $ 4 in today's early trade. Looks like slowly heading towards US $ 100 mark.
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Posted By: Invest_in_India
Date Posted: 25/Jun/2008 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by paragdesai
Crude Oil Down almost US $ 4 in today's early trade. Looks like slowly heading towards US $ 100 mark. |
Amen !!! 
------------- Cheers,
Raj
"Que sera, sera,
Whatever will be, will be;
The future's not ours to see.
Que sera, sera,
What will be, will be.
Que Sera, Sera!"
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Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 25/Jun/2008 at 10:16pm
if demand falls price has to correct.
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 25/Jun/2008 at 10:17am
As per a theory, Crude Oil won't correct before hitting stop loss levels of USD 142~144. Many hedge funds are short big time since 120 level.
So it's going to be Amarnath err Amaranth Yatra time.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
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Posted By: Invest_in_India
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 6:00pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Oil_to_hit_150-170_in_coming_months_OPEC/articleshow/3168842.cms - Oil price to hit $150-170 in coming months: OPEC
------------- Cheers,
Raj
"Que sera, sera,
Whatever will be, will be;
The future's not ours to see.
Que sera, sera,
What will be, will be.
Que Sera, Sera!"
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by kulman
As per a theory, Crude Oil won't correct before hitting stop loss levels of USD 142~144. Many hedge funds are short big time since 120 level.
So it's going to be Amarnath err Amaranth Yatra time.
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If stoploss hit at 142-144 level that means it can go upto 150-160 range to cover all the shorts ?
I have not much knowledge about it.
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Posted By: master
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 8:41pm
Oil jumps on OPEC, Libya comments
By John Wilen, AP Business Writer
Oil futures shot up to nearly $139 a barrel Thursday after OPEC's president said oil prices could rise well above $150 a barrel this year and Libya said it may cut oil production. Light, sweet crude for August delivery rose as high as $138.95 a barrel shortly after the New York Mercantile Exchange opened before retreating some to trade up $4 at 138.55.
Chakib Khelil, president of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, said he believes oil prices could rise to between $150 and $170 a barrel this summer before declining later in the year. Khelil said he doesn't think prices will reach $200 a barrel. The head of Libya's national oil company said the country may cut crude production because the oil market is well supplied, according to news reports.
------------- Someone’s sitting in shade today because someone planted a tree long time ago.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 10:36pm
These arabs will extract their pound (barrell) of flesh (oil) see how they blamed speculation a couple of days back in Jeddah and now this new fuel (pun intended) to the fire.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: gwhunting
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 11:06pm
And he even says crude market is well surprised what an as$h#(#..
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Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 10:03am
there may be a policy announcment around the corner ...which will put an end to all this ... has anyone heard of the Hunt brothers....it was a silver speculation
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Posted By: ndzapak
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 10:31am
Billionaire Warren Buffett says he believes supply and demand, not market speculation, is what's driving oil prices to new heights.
Oil futures fell Wednesday after the Energy Department said the nation's supplies of fuel and oil were larger than expected last week, but prices remain above $130 a barrel.
Buffett told CNBC in a live interview that today's prices reflect a lack of oil in the world. Some people have suggested that curbing speculation in oil contracts could dramatically lower the price of oil.
And at least nine bills proposing limits on that oil speculation have been introduced in Congress in recent weeks.
------------- the Equitydesk is the best
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Posted By: gwhunting
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 10:59am
I beg to differ with him.. If oil prices were driven by supply and demand why these drastic changes in oil prices? Is the world suddenly consuming more and consumes less the next day?
I dont know by how much are the oil prices are jacked up but they are certainly jacked up.
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Posted By: experteye
Date Posted: 26/Jun/2008 at 11:59am
OIL IS BOILING AGAIN...................
Why is the oil market last night spooked by Libya's threat to limit oil exports in response to US political threats?
Libya, producing close to 2m bopd (or about 2% global output), is Africa's third largest oil producer (below Algeria, Angola and above Nigeria).
If the world is to lose Libya's 2m bopd, we estimate about 67% of global spare capacity will be wiped out, thus last night's 4% surge in crude futures.
Reality is that global oil production has remained static at 81m bopd since 2004, while demand has grown at 1% cagr to over 85m bopd despite a tripling in oil prices.
Why? Many of the world's biggest oil fields have gone into irreversible decline (See page 5 of presentation), and most recent oil discoveries tend to be small (See page 6), with inferior economy of scale (i.e., higher unit extraction costs), thus our inability to fully recharge the global supply system in the past few years.
This situation will likely worsen over time, as we could still see high oil prices even with demand destruction (by the way, Asia now consumes more oil than US). Why? To have falling oil prices, we need higher supply than demand. Falling demand doesn't necessarily spell falling prices if global supply is falling even faster.
Our recent benchmarking studies have also demonstrated (see attached) that oil companies operating margin and return on capital employed have actually not increased much despite surging oil prices.
While global oil companies are reporting blockbuster headline profits, their share price valuations (although outperforming other sectors) have been de-rated because these blockbuster profits are accompanied by massive capex increases. If we factor in the fact that these blockbuster profits now increasing come from high risk countries such as Nigeria, Russia, Kazakhstan, etc., then oil companies haven't actually increased their risk-adjusted return-on-capital employed despite surging oil prices.
The world is not enough and we are facing a full-blown energy crisis.
Cheers, Gordon Kwan Head of China Energy Research
------------- more risk,more profit but have a vision before taking risk,itis all about investment in equities market.
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 27/Jun/2008 at 1:45pm
[QUOTE=kulman]As per a theory, Crude Oil won't correct before hitting stop loss levels of USD 142~144. Many hedge funds are short big time since 120 level.
So it's going to be Amarnath err Amaranth Yatra time.
Kulmanji,
First part of your theory has worked. OIL reach all most USD 142. Now hoping for second part to start.
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Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 27/Jun/2008 at 4:13pm
not only hedge funds many banks are long on oil coz that is the only place their making money ...sooner or later it will burst and a fund like amarnath will tank like it did in 2006
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 27/Jun/2008 at 4:22pm
One More Article on OIL SPECULATION http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/con -
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Posted By: Blues Soul
Date Posted: 30/Jun/2008 at 5:18pm
Given below is an extract from transcript of a Goldman Sachs con call with Mr. Arjun Murti
Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
Global Oil Research Team Conference Call
June 20, 2008
Moderator:
Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. I am Rita, the moderator for this conference. Welcome to the Goldman Sachs Conference Call. For the duration of the presentation, all participants’ lines will be in the listen-only mode. After the presentation, the question and answer session will be conducted for participants connected to WebEx International. After that, the question and answer session will be conducted for participants connected in India. I would now like to handover the floor to Mr. Nilesh Banerjee. Thank you and over to you sir.
Nilesh Banerjee:
Thanks. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to all. The subject we are going to address here today is something that is touching all our lives in various ways, oil prices, and to share his views with us, please welcome Arjun Murti the heir of Goldman Sachs’ Global Oil Research Team. As you are aware, he was the one who had correctly predicted oil super spike of $105 way back in March 2005, when oil actually was hovering around $40. Recently, he has mentioned oil potentially hitting $200 dollars in the medium term. Without taking any more time, let me handover the floor to Arjun. Here we go Arjun.
Arjun Murti:
Thank you very much Nilesh, and I very much appreciate the opportunity to speak with everyone here dialing in from India. Thank you for the time to speak with you, and I very much look forward to questions you have. I think I am going to go through maybe 15 to 20 minutes of oil price outlook, and then would welcome any questions after that. As Nilesh mentioned, it was really sort of in the 2004-2005 timeframe that we started becoming noticeably more bullish on crude oil. In this by way of some very quick history, my own career began back in 1992 at a small investment bank in Denver, and you know, throughout the 1990s, and I was both in Denver and then on the by-side at a firm in New York, the prevailing wisdom at that time was that oil would be firmly in a $15 to $20 per barrel band in perpetuity, and the basic thought process was if crude oil prices ever got much above $20 a barrel, to say even $21 or $22, we would see a flood of new supply, and then similarly if crude oil prices ever got above, lest to say $25 or $30, the view was it should have a pretty bad global recession, certainly a US recession leading then to a global recession, and that this would then bring down demand, and so either way, to supply or demand, prices were to remain rooted in this $15 to $20 per barrel environment, and as we started getting into the early part of this decade, 2001-2002-2003, both myself and my colleagues around the world, which included analysts in London, another part of Europe, as well as in Asia, we started coming together various approach that looked at non-OPEC supply, and if you look even back at our initial report, we thought non-OPEC supply could grow fairly robustly 3 or 4% a year. Most of my major oil companies that I most closely focused on, companies like Exxon, Chevron, Conoco, and then over in Europe that my colleagues know covered BP, Shell, Total, etc.; all these companies had supply production growth forecasts of 3% to 9% per year. It was always starting next year, but that then production would then grow 3% to 9% per year. I mean, when we look back, the experience was, 2000-2001-2002-2003, we started noticing that the companies were missing these forecasts badly. It was not that they forecast 5% and came in at 4%. In the case like Chevron Texaco, the forecast had positive 3% and came in at negative 3%. Shell was at, you know, various times forecasting 3% to 7% and ended up coming in at negative 3% to 4%. Exxon promised +3, came it at zero, and we started taking a fresh look at our own models and assumptions, and I think one thing that became very apparent was that you had this big boom in the 1970’s that led to a number of major new developments, things like Prudhoe Bay and Alaska, various North Sea fields, and other major producing facilities, and at that time, industry invested a lot of money to build infrastructure and develop these big fields. They then spent most of the 1980’s and 1990’s getting more oil, we call the exploitation phase out of these major developments, and that proved to be very cost effective, so if you only built a big pipeline in Alaska and you have already developed all the major infrastructure, poking a few holes around the edges of the field to extract the remaining oil supply was very, very profitable, and could be done at a very low cost. It was a big trend of declining costs, and there is also this ability to sort of easily add supply from those exploitation or incremental opportunities, and you also had a big demand correction in the early 1980’s, so you had a lot of spare capacity that was built up, primarily in the OPEC countries, and therefore through this combination of low-risk drilling in the non-OPEC areas, and the OPEC countries tapping into their spare capacity, it was very easy to meet demand growth throughout the 1980’s and 1990’s, and it really was not until this sort of early 2000 period that it started to becoming evident that both supply was much more challenging, that the companies were not able to meet their production growth forecasts, and with hindsight, I think, they and many people, both within industry and analyst community had kind of fooled themselves into believing you could always do this very easy exploitation drilling. So, in early 2002-2003, that we started noticing that supply trends were not going to be as robust as we previously thought. I think the big surprise on the demand side that really stuck out was 2004, so for the first time oil had broken through, or first time in the long time $30 dollars a barrel, and despite breaking through $30 and all of this fear of this would cause a big pullback in demand, what we actually observed was an increase in demand, most notably in China, the demand grew 15% in 2004. The United States, a very mature oil country, mature oil prospects, demand grew +3%, a huge number for the United States, and so we thought how can it be that with oil prices having risen so much, we thought 15 to 20, it is now 30 dollars a barrel plus, the demand is actually accelerating, and we started changing our thinking that it would be old paradigm from the 1970’s that high oil prices are bad for the economy. It was not the right way to be thinking about it. That in fact it was just the opposite, a stronger economy is actually good for oil prices, and that when you look back at the 1970’s, that was driven as much by supply shocks, oil being taken off the market. We have supply shocks that can be bad for demand in the economy, but that is not what we were having this time. We were having an economy, global economic boom-led driven growth in oil demand, and so suddenly our thoughts on this started shifting that A) supply is going to be much more difficult to grow, as we can see from covering all of our oil companies around the world, and by the time we got further into the 2000 built in the analysis from our colleagues in Beijing and Hong Kong at that time, we were covering some of the Chinese Oils that were just emerging as public companies, started looking at some of the Russian Oils, as well as in Europe, and our colleagues there added some analysis, and we started taking a lot more confidence with the supply growth was not going to be robust, and similarly that the demand was going to likely continue. In June of 2004, we published our first report saying quantifying the upside optionality of the super spike, which came out with a very simple view that let us look at what happened in the 1970’s. If the current prices at that time were $30 or $35 dollar a barrel, it was not leading to faster supply growth or lower demand growth, then prices would likely need to be higher, but how high, so we looked back at the 1970’s and 1980’s, when oil prices in real terms were $50 to $80 a barrel. This was in 2003 or 2004 dollars, and we simply used that as our price band. We think there is a potential for oil to go to $50 to $80 a barrel. That report, for better or worse, did not get a lot of media attention, thank goodness, I guess it was such a boring title, but nevertheless, that was our first publication of our super spike view. We then updated that in March of 2005, which Nilesh referenced, which tried to put some analytics behind what price will ration demand back, if we were not going to have supply growth, then we are going to have to have less demand. Bring demand down to the level of available supply, and what we looked at was US gasoline spending as a percent of various economic measures, personal disposable incomes in the US are favorite, and we looked at what was the impact in the late 1970’s or early 1980’s, and therefore we had a corresponding impact this time around, what would be the resulting gasoline price and the resulting crude oil price. The reason we chose to go down the road on this analysis was we had negative demand from 1981 to 1985. It is really the only multi-year period in the history of oil business, 160 years, we had sort of 5 years of sharply declining demand in the US and around the world, and that decline in demand in the early 1980’s coupled with the supply growth that came out of the 1970’s led to the big spare capacity cushion, and then that kind of 15-year period of much lower prices, so we are trying to say what are the conditions that happened in the late 1970’s, early 80’s that led to this decline in demand situation, and the math worked out to somewhere between 6 to 6.5% gasoline spending as a percent of personal disposable income is where we peak. If we apply that in 2005, had various assumptions for marketing margins or refining margins, etc, that would have worked out to somewhere between $80 and $135 oil prices. We actually picked the middle of that band, $105 is sort of our high-end of our super spike band, and it did get a lot of attention. We always thought that $105 was a conservative number, so because in March of 2005, oil was merely $50 dollars a barrel, people thought it was too optimistic to put it kindly. People thought it was too optimistic to come out with $105 high in forecast, but again our analysis actually showed the number could have been as high as $135, and some times going on, 06-07, supply continues to disappoint, demand continues to be resilient, and we have updated this analysis and these numbers several times, including earlier this year, where we upped the band to $150 to $200 based on additional disappointment in supply and the continuation of oil demand growth. Now, people always ask why do you pick the US as the place we have to demand destruction, that seems to be very narrow view of the world, and it actually not meant to be a US-centric view, it is meant to be a global view, and the reason we pick the US is when we look at China, when we look at the Middle East, and when we look at the Latin America, which we call 3 of the core drivers, with China and the Middle East the most important, the prices of course are regulated. In the Middle East, they are subsidized at very lower levels, gasoline prices are of course very inexpensive as an example. In China, they are actually not as inexpensive as I think. Certainly, people in the West perceive them to be. Up until yesterday’s announcement, China, you know, we estimate was paying at equivalent of $90 dollar oil prices, and that is already up sharply from $20 a barrel several years ago, and maybe with today’s price hikes, they are $100 to $105, something like that, but they have steadily increased their price, and one thing we observe is when prices steadily increase, it is far less traumatic for the users of oil than if the price sharply increases. So, we look to the areas of the world that did not have price regulations, that did not have subsidies, and that is basically then the Western World, the OECD countries, but the thing is European oil demand has not grown very much for variety of reasons. Japanese oil demand has been flattered down as well. So, the one country that was growing was the United States, so our view would be that has been that you are going to have to have meaningful demand destruction in the United States before we can talk about the potential for a global oil demand slowdown, and then potentially lower prices. So, if we fast forward to where we are today, and to our most recent series of reports, which is very much an effort of our global team, US of course what might contributes tremendously to these effort as Kelvin Koh in Asia, Michele Della Vigna and Anton Sychev in London and Moscow respectively, and then many of my colleagues in the US, Brian Singer and Chuck Minervino, etc, and our latest global effort in terms of analyzing the situation is a first half of 2008, non-OPEC crude oil supply is actually down. I mean, that is just to me a stunning recognition that we are actually down in crude oil supply this year. We are 8 years into this up cycle. Capital spending has tripled or quadrupled from those companies, and non-OPEC supply is actually slightly down. That gives us a lot of confidence that supply is not on track to grow appreciably going forward, and we think that is very much reflected in long-run crude oil prices which have gone to as high as $130 - $135 a barrel. The market is recognizing that in the absence of the supply growth, you really going to have to focus on the demand side. Now, we do have negative demand in the United States. We are of course likely in recession right now, and with the sharp increase in prices that has seen over the last 4 months, whenever you get a sharp increase, you do tend to get a bit of a demand reaction. We were sort of negative 1% demand growth this year, but as best as we can see outside of the OECD countries, again China, now India, the Middle East, and Latin America, demand still seems to be growing at a fairly healthy quip. There is a lot of concern over the listing or the narrowing of some of the fuel subsidies, and in reference to everyone to a note that Nilesh and Kelvin published a week or two back, and our view is that demand in which these subsidies are being listed is such that it is unlikely to have a material negative impact on the demand in these countries. I will use China as the example. If they completely free floated, their oil price at International level, then maybe, and I use the word maybe we might be somewhat more concerned. The country actually has shortages right now. People in China have been willing to demand more refined products that have been available, and to the extent that the country has had negative refining margins, and whether Sinopec or Petro China, which at least get some subsidies back or more notably some of the teapot refineries, the smaller refineries, that have been unable to run because margins have been negative, well the higher in product prices is likely to leave them to run more crude oil to their refineries and provide more products to China, so somewhat counter-intuitively, you actually get a positive demand reaction, certainly on the crude oil side. The country is likely to demand more crude oil as a result of more robust refining margins. So, we think yesterday’s $5 sell-off was overdone. Now, crude oil prices are very volatile, so you can get pullbacks from time to time, but you know, we continue to be very much in the bullish camp here. I want to stress a couple of things before we open it up for questions. First, we do not believe, we are not subscribers to the peak oil theory. We don’t think the world is “running out of oil,” but the oil is more concentrated in just a few places, so the traditional areas whether it was the US Lower 48, the North City, Alaska, what have you, they are very, very mature, and there is almost no oil price that which is going to grow supply. Then, you got oil in places like Iraq, Iran, Saudi, Russia, Venezuela. All those countries with the exception of Saudi has various geopolitical constraints in developing the oil field, and so to the extent they are not voluntarily investing or bringing in Western companies. Either one would add supply. The supplies are not going to magically bubble out of the ground. Saudi is taking some attempt to grow their supply, but almost none of the others are, and so we are very, very dependent on basically one country to grow their supply, and that therefore keeps us focused on the demand side, but we do not think the issue is peak oil. The issue is really geopolitical constraints with developing oil resources in the number of these countries. The other point I want to make is that we do call it a spike, I think the notion that you can ask, finely balanced supply-demand in a volatile commodity like oil, the meaningful exogenous events like extreme weather, delays in projects just for natural reasons, let alone geopolitical turmoil and geopolitical constraints on growing supply means it is very, very unlikely that you maintain a very fine balance into perpetuity, and that is what we have always thought, the price at some point does go high enough that you not only drag down the OECD, but the key is when does that ever spill over to the rest of the world, and I think one of the key tests that the world has faced this year is, hey, the US is in recession or something that feels more or like recession, yet we still seem to have very robust economic growth, and more importantly for us, oil demand growth in the non-OECD countries, so the question I would ask is when does one believe that the major infrastructure and economic boom going on in China and the Middle East roll over. It is going to be, I think, a very hard thing to predict, but that we call the number one thing we would be looking for in terms of thinking that the cycle can roll over. We do presume it rolls over at some point in time, and Nilesh mentioned our current high-end of our super spike band is $150 to $200. We just yesterday raised our base-case price tag for the next couple of years to $140 and $150 a barrel, and again see if the potential is for further upside there, but our long-term number is $85, and whether it is $85 or $60 or $90 is lest the point, the point is more that if we get into environment where you have enough global demand destruction, even in a flat supply environment, if you can build up the spare capacity, you can begin to unwind, especially some of the cost inflationary aspects of this cycle, oil service day rates do not always have to go up, EMC contracting costs and labor costs don’t always have to go up, but you do have to stop the infrastructure boom if you are to reverse some of those effects. If they reverse, we think you can ultimately then potentially have lower prices for oil. I am going to stop there. Nilesh, I don’t know if you had anything you wanted to add to that. If you did or you didn’t either way, then we are happy to open it up for questions.
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 07/Jul/2008 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by kulman
As per a theory, Crude Oil won't correct before hitting stop loss levels of USD 142~144. Many hedge funds are short big time since 120 level.
So it's going to be Amarnath err Amaranth Yatra time.
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Today Crude slides to USD 142. Now what are the chances of going to USD 100 ?
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Posted By: Chetan Panchal
Date Posted: 07/Jul/2008 at 6:38pm
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=/data/business/2008/July/business_July244.xml§ion=business - http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=/data/business/2008/July/business_July244.xml§ion=business
Crude Price where it will go??
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 07/Jul/2008 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by paragdesai
Originally posted by kulman
As per a theory, Crude Oil won't correct before hitting stop loss levels of USD 142~144. Many hedge funds are short big time since 120 level.
So it's going to be Amarnath err Amaranth Yatra time.
|
Today Crude slides to USD 142. Now what are the chances of going to USD 100 ? |
Chances are 50:50 
Crude markets are signalling consumers to use it wisely or there's going to be supply crisis. Hence, it may not fall much.
There are three elements:
1. A price considering supply-demand equation. If demand really falls price will follow.
2. US Dollar strength/weakness has been having an inverse effect.
3. Terror premium.
And then there's hurricane season in Mexican Gulf.
Wow!!
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
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Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 07/Jul/2008 at 9:25pm
honda civic ex 36 miles to the gallon priced for $22000.toyata planning to shut down SUVTUNDRA plant.finally something is happening in a country thats treated crude with total disrespect!although these are baby steps.btw honda civic ex production lines are on full capacity.bloomberg .com
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 12:21pm
In Praise of Oil Speculation
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/jul2008/bw2008077_402476.htm - http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/jul2008/bw2008077_402476.htm
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Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 4:46pm
it doesnt matter if speculation is fueling oil...but the thing is lot of people liek to gamble and they will chase price ..i think worst is yet to come if crude holds like this
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by PrashantS
..i think worst is yet to come if crude holds like this
|
You are right.
On the flip side, with majority people expecting equities to rally after crude's fall, Mr. Market might be having a different shock in store. Who knows? Strange are the ways of Mr. Market.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by kulman
Originally posted by PrashantS
..i think worst is yet to come if crude holds like this
|
On the flip side, with majority people expecting equities to rally after crude's fall, Mr. Market might be having a different shock in store. Who knows? Strange are the ways of Mr. Market.
|
You mean to say decline in crude price is already factored in at current levels or the decline in crude price like housing bubble may create another financial crises? 
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 10:40pm
Actually what I meant was that Mr. Market usually behaves contrary to the popular consensus opinion.
So when everyone & my dhobi
would go long equities (with leverage) Mr. Market might refuse to rise,
rather decline hitting their stop-losses. Such are the ways of Mr.
Markets.
Here are some interesting thoughts by Jason Zweig http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1442&KW=neuro&PN=2 - posted earlier here :
A simple solution is to keep an emotional journal. Once a day, religiously, make a little note about your gut feelings as to where the financial markets are headed, such as, “How do I feel about my portfolios today? I’m really happy about how things went. It makes me feel good.”
Every once in a while, take a look at what your emotions were telling you and what happened afterward. You’ll learn that if you turn them upside-down, your own emotions are a very good guide to what’s about to happen in the markets. I
don’t believe that investors or advisors can turn their emotions off.
But I do believe you can learn to turn them inside-out. The way you do
that is by seeing how unreliable they are. This will enable you to cure your hindsight bias and to learn that by investing in the grip of emotion, you will always get things backwards.
|
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
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Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by kulman
Originally posted by PrashantS
..i think worst is yet to come if crude holds like this
|
You are right.
On the flip side, with majority people expecting equities to rally after crude's fall, Mr. Market might be having a different shock in store. Who knows? Strange are the ways of Mr. Market.
|
your right even if crude falls things wont go up so easily ...eveyrone thingks crude is the big evil ...but what about people gambling in the market ...it will take time for that sentiment to build
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Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 9:06am
Originally posted by kulman
Originally posted by PrashantS
..i think worst is yet to come if crude holds like this
|
You are right.
On the flip side, with majority people expecting equities to rally after crude's fall, Mr. Market might be having a different shock in store. Who knows? Strange are the ways of Mr. Market.
|
Very true ..if things were so easy we would all be rich at the same time ....btw if things go up or down for crude ....both ways someone is really going to pay a big price especially if it goes down some banks will
be in deep trouble I guess.
Moral : Never trust the obvious.
------------- Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap
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Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 9:10am
As for equites to rise just cause crude comes down ..I think the law of nature will ensure that after the heady bull run, people now will have to learn and earn money the hard way ..we will have to digest the entire learning wait (I dont know how long ) till people forget equities and only then some thing good will happen until such time it will be just the hot money that will be chasing the new investment classes one after another.
------------- Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 9:20am
people now will have to learn and earn money the hard way ....
.if things were so easy we would all be rich at the same time
Moral : Never trust the obvious.
|
You have hit the nail on its head.
On a lighter note, are you the man with the hammer that Charlie Munger refers in his speeches?
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
|
Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 08/Jul/2008 at 9:32am
Originally posted by kulman
A simple solution is to keep an emotional journal. Once a day, religiously, make a little note about your gut feelings as to where the financial markets are headed, such as, “How do I feel about my portfolios today? I’m really happy about how things went. It makes me feel good.” Every once in a while, take a look at what your emotions were telling you and what happened afterward. You’ll learn that if you turn them upside-down, your own emotions are a very good guide to what’s about to happen in the markets. I don’t believe that investors or advisors can turn their emotions off. But I do believe you can learn to turn them inside-out. The way you do that is by seeing how unreliable they are. This will enable you to cure your hindsight bias and to learn that by investing in the grip of emotion, you will always get things backwards.
|
First part of this lesson I have already learned when both crude & sensex rallied together since 2005 to Jan 2008. It was hard to believe for me at that time that sensex will rally in line with higher crude price. Actually both are inversely correlated.
But as you correctly said & also Basantji indicating that to avoid the macro factors which are out of our control. I am relatively new to the stock market & I have seen first phase of bull run & passing through the first phase of bear market.
I am not trying to correlate movement of Sensex & Oil Price but trying to understand what happened to Sensex in Jan 2008 can also be happen to Oil in coming times.
|
Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 09/Jul/2008 at 1:35pm
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/jul2008/bw2008078_706271.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story -
High Oil Prices: Hype's Impact
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Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 09/Jul/2008 at 4:11pm
this has really become a nasty game 5$ down and all equity mkts are jumping and whats next kal chad gaya sell off...really pagal bana rahein hein sabko
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Posted By: Invest_in_India
Date Posted: 09/Jul/2008 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by PrashantS
this has really become a nasty game 5$ down and all equity mkts are jumping and whats next kal chad gaya sell off...really pagal bana rahein hein sabko
|
Infact chadna shuru ho gaya hai . Up $1.6 today. Anyways, Indian market over-reacted today(up 4%) & similarly we will over-react to the bad news 
------------- Cheers,
Raj
"Que sera, sera,
Whatever will be, will be;
The future's not ours to see.
Que sera, sera,
What will be, will be.
Que Sera, Sera!"
|
Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 11/Jul/2008 at 12:25pm
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jul2008/db20080710_610685.htm -
Oil: Wall Street vs. Main Street
|
Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 11/Jul/2008 at 5:26am
Article on oil buble by Haresh.
http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/market-outlook/how-big-is%E2%80%98oil-bubble%E2%80%99/04/52/342054 - http://www.moneycontrol.com/india/news/market-outlook/how-big-is%E2%80%98oil-bubble%E2%80%99/04/52/342054
------------- While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.
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Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 13/Aug/2008 at 12:16pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1333749120080813?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10112 - Driving continues to decline as Americans change habits
Americans drove 12.2 billion miles less in June from a year ago as high gasoline prices cut the number of highway miles traveled during the month by 4.7 percent, the U.S. Transportation Department said on Wednesday.
The impact of driving less was also reflected in new Energy Department data released this week that said total U.S. petroleum demand shrank by an average 800,000 barrels a day during the first half of this year, the biggest decline in 26 years, because of soaring pump costs and a weak economy.
Trucks sales had consistently made up the majority of vehicles sold between 1997 and 2007, until rising gasoline prices encouraged consumers to switch to cars with better fuel economy.
Instead of riding down the highway, many owners have their trucks and sport utility vehicles parked in their driveways with "For Sale" signs on them. |
|
Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 13/Aug/2008 at 10:04am
Originally posted by smartcat
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1333749120080813?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=10112 - Driving continues to decline as Americans change habits
Americans drove 12.2 billion miles less in June from a year ago as high gasoline prices cut the number of highway miles traveled during the month by 4.7 percent, the U.S. Transportation Department said on Wednesday.
The impact of driving less was also reflected in new Energy Department data released this week that said total U.S. petroleum demand shrank by an average 800,000 barrels a day during the first half of this year, the biggest decline in 26 years, because of soaring pump costs and a weak economy.
Trucks sales had consistently made up the majority of vehicles sold between 1997 and 2007, until rising gasoline prices encouraged consumers to switch to cars with better fuel economy.
Instead of riding down the highway, many owners have their trucks and sport utility vehicles parked in their driveways with "For Sale" signs on them. |
|
I see quite a few of my colleagues in the US who have opted to work from home instead of making that long drive to office...I hope they allow that here in India as well we can but problem is if they allow that here many will WORK FOR HOME instead of WORK FROM HOME. 
------------- Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap
|
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 13/Aug/2008 at 11:40am
I see quite a few of my colleagues in the US who have opted to work
from home instead of making that long drive to office...I hope they
allow that here in India as well we can but problem is if they allow
that here many will WORK FOR HOME instead of WORK FROM HOME |
Very true!
One positive thing is that online day trading volume would then rise going forward.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
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Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 14/Aug/2008 at 12:03pm
My cousin in USA uses a bicycle to get to his office (8 km away).
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Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 14/Aug/2008 at 2:15pm
your cousin obiviously does 16 k biking every day.which means he gets a good cardio workout which means he saves on going to the gym.provided he does not eat those burger and frys his health should also improve
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things
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Posted By: atulbull
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2008 at 12:01pm
Oil falls to $113 on bearish global demand
Friday, 15 August
, 2008, 18:59 Last Updated: Friday, 15 August , 2008, 19:01
London: Oil dropped by $2 to $113 a barrel on Friday to trade near the
lowest since early May, pressured by faltering global demand and rising supply.
Crude has fallen sharply since reaching an all-time high of $147.27 a barrel
on July 11 partly on concern about weakening demand and fell as low as $112.31,
the lowest since May 2, on Tuesday.
"The demand side is a major concern. Supplies from OPEC countries are rising
but there is a shortage of buyers. The industrial use in China has been cut
back," said Gerard Burg from National Australia Bank.
http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=14739730 -
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2008 at 4:41pm
Now we start counting backwards 100 cents at a time... sometimes I wonder what would happen if we dramatized things a little lesser then what we normally do.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: vijaygawde
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2008 at 5:43am
http://seekingalpha.com/article/91100-forget-100-a-barrel-oil-will-plummet-to-30 - Forget $100 a Barrel - Oil Will Plummet to $30 !!!
------------- Diversification is protection against ignorance, it makes little sense for those who know what they’re doing.
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Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 16/Aug/2008 at 6:14am
i don't know after reading the above article it felt like more of a onion kindda parody article............
well in comments section for the article it summons up well.........as a following....
-------------------------------------------------------
When I was young if something was in print it was generally considered to have validity. With the internet that assumption can no longer be made. Any idiot can print anything because there is not cost to publishing.
--------------------------------------------------------
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Posted By: vijaygawde
Date Posted: 19/Aug/2008 at 5:14am
First Global has come out another sensational report as usual...
The End Of The Crude Ponzi Scheme
Crude Likely to drop down to $ 90 a barrel by the year end and $ 50 a barrel in 12 months from now. We simply feel sorry for all those who bought Cairns (FV Rs 2) at Rs 340 and Selan Oil (FV Rs 10) at Rs 335, Videocon (FV Rs 10) at Rs 800...marginal crude producers will see their profitability decline miserably to the average of the past two to five years.
Some recent research reports suggest that not much exploration is taking place and BigOil (comprising of the super-majors like Exxonmobil, Chevron, BP etc) is spending more money in buying back shares rather than finding new reserves. On the other side, Big Oil has been under investing in E&P activities because they are themselves of the opinion that getting locked into long-term contracts for rigs and other equipment, at today’s high rates, is not prudent, because the rates themselves are based on today’s high oil prices, and these oil prices may not sustain.
Oil prices will continue sliding as the impact of demand destruction takes its toll, and supplies become more visible. Moreover, new discoveries and their rapid development (Brazil has undertaken a massive offshore exploration and development program, USA’s outer continental shelf area will also be opened soon), together with nonconventional oil from tar sands (which has led to an increase of 17 bn barrels in Canada’s reserves to 27 bn barrels by 2007), gas to oil etc., will make the supply situation very comfortable in future.
Over the next 12-18 months, we expect oil prices to reach around $50 a barrel, which is roughly the same level from where the current oil bubble began. And who knows, we could see oil back at $30 over the next couple of years. Stranger things have happened in this world. After all, Oil was at $50 just about 1 ˝ years back. 
------------- Diversification is protection against ignorance, it makes little sense for those who know what they’re doing.
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Posted By: Ajith
Date Posted: 19/Aug/2008 at 10:03am
First Global has just carried to an extreme the prevalent view of demand destruction.Had they made the call at the peak of 145 dollars plus, that would have been brilliant.(some one did make a call like that on this forum before oil fell)
------------- Ajith
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 19/Aug/2008 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Ajith
First Global has just carried to an extreme the prevalent view of demand destruction.Had they made the call at the peak of 145 dollars plus, that would have been brilliant.(some one did make a call like that on this forum before oil fell)
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Yes, It was Kulmanji.
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Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2008 at 9:27pm
oh shanker sharma..........u have failed me again....
source : bloomberg
VALUE CHANGE % CHANGE
Oil 121.42 5.86 5.07
Gold 843.20 26.90 3.30
Natural Gas 8.34 0.27 3.32
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2008 at 10:29pm
Hope this will turn out as a Bear Market rally.
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Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2008 at 10:40pm
beer market rally.........cheers
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Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2008 at 1:29am
A Few Speculators Dominate Vast Market for Oil Trading
Regulators had long classified a private Swiss energy conglomerate called Vitol as a trader that primarily helped industrial firms that needed oil to run their businesses.
But when the Commodity Futures Trading Commission examined Vitol's books last month, it found that the firm was in fact more of a speculator, holding oil contracts as a profit-making investment rather than a means of lining up the actual delivery of fuel. Even more surprising to the commodities markets was the massive size of Vitol's portfolio -- at one point in July, the firm held 11 percent of all the oil contracts on the regulated New York Mercantile Exchange.............
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003898.html?hpid=topnews - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003898.html?hpid=topnews
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Posted By: stocktin
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2008 at 2:18am
Buffet, Gates tour Alberta oilsands
Last Updated: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 | 12:44 PM MT Comments50Recommend34
CBC News
Two of the richest men in the world made a surprise visit to Alberta's oilsands Monday, oil industry officials confirmed Wednesday.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet visited the $9-billion Horizon oilsands project, owned by Canadian Natural Resources, just north of Fort McMurray. Gates is the founder of Microsoft and Buffet owns the mammoth holdings company Berkshire Hathaway, which is worth a reported $62 billion.
Greg Stringham, vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, said the first he heard about the visit was when he got a call asking him to make a presentation to the two men and their entourage.
"It was not our initiative to put the group together or be part of the tour. We were just invited to come up and give a presentation to them, which is what we did. "
Stringham said he was happy to oblige.
"[We gave them a] general overview of what was going on in the oil and gas industry, very general, kind of what we give to many other people when they are visiting."
Stringham wouldn't say why the pair decided to visit the oilsands, or if they talked about any future plans to invest in the community.
------------- taggy
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Posted By: vijaygawde
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2008 at 4:39am
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Oil_falls_by_6_biggest_drop_since_2004/articleshow/3394989.cms - Oil falls $6, biggest drop since 2004
Crude oil prices fell more than $6 on Friday in the biggest one-day percentage slide since 2004 as dealers turned their focus to rising supply levels and weakening global demand.
A rebound in the US dollar encouraged the sell-off, applying downward pressure across the commodities markets by weakening the purchasing power of buyers using other http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Oil_falls_by_6_biggest_drop_since_2004/articleshow/3394989.cms# - - currencies , analysts said.
"People who were buying yesterday are taking profits today," said Peter Beutel, analyst at consultancy Cameron Hanover. "There is also renewed technical selling and talk again of demand destruction. The dollar is strong again too."
US crude fell $6.07, or 5 per cent, to $115.11 a barrel at 1825 GMT, the biggest one-day fall in percentage terms since December 2004. London Brent crude fell $5.85 to $114.31 a barrel. The slide completely reversed crude's surge on Thursday, underscoring the increasing volatility of the energy market, which has dropped more than 20 per cent from peaks in mid-July but is still about 15 percent up on the year.
The declines Friday were encouraged by two separate reports Friday showing an uptick in OPEC crude oil output and an expected decline in US travel over the Sept. 1 Labor Day holiday weekend. Industry consultant Petrologistics said on Friday OPEC oil output was expected to rise in August by 450,000 barrels per day to 32.95 million bpd, a factor that could further beef up inventory levels in consumer nations. Meanwhile, the US auto and travel group AAA said that Labor Day holiday travel was expected to fall this year by the largest amount in at least eight years as consumers struggle with higher gasoline prices and airfares.
Concerns high energy costs are taking a toll on global fuel demand have played a big role in oil's sharp descent from peaks above $147 a barrel in mid-July. Friday's losses came after a big climb in prices earlier in the week that had been supported by rising tension between the United States and Russia, the world's second biggest oil producer.
------------- Diversification is protection against ignorance, it makes little sense for those who know what they’re doing.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2008 at 8:33am
"People who were buying yesterday are taking profits today," said Peter Beutel, analyst at consultancy Cameron Hanover. "There is also renewed technical selling and talk again of demand destruction. The dollar is strong again too." |
These explanations look so obvious and dumb!
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 02/Sep/2008 at 1:23pm
Oil is trading @108.5 USD.
On Thursday one analyst from US was arguing that Oil & Gas Future are available for free on that day since Hurricane Gustav will push the Oil & Gas future price through the roof.
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Posted By: prashantmohta
Date Posted: 02/Sep/2008 at 1:58pm
now the the headlines will be that some hedge funds collapsing in few days.
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Posted By: nannu_68
Date Posted: 02/Sep/2008 at 9:49pm
My post dated 05 jul on US economy thread-
"Rise in oil price thru speculation in
futures commodity market is another way of Bush paying to his campaign
sponsors.. war on afganistan and iraq were also for this primary
reason.. but this is only what a lot of people believe in, nothing
concrete to prove or disprove here.. so if this is the last payback
from bush, then the oil price should
start easing off, before the next US elections.. war on Iran could
really throw things off though! more views on this are welcome.. "
conspiracy theory"!!!"
Seems to be heading the same way!! 
------------- nannu
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Posted By: prashantmohta
Date Posted: 04/Sep/2008 at 11:50am
Ospraie Management To Shut Down Largest Fund
Hedge fund Ospraie Management, one of the biggest players in commodities, said Tuesday it is shutting down its largest fund after significant losses.
The Ospraie Fund fell 27% in August alone due to bets on oil, natural gas, structured products and the fund has been selling off its holdings over the past three weeks, possibly contributing to the decline in commodity prices recently. The fund, whose assets peaked at $3.8 billion late last year, is the biggest run by Dwight Anderson, a veteran commodities investor.In a letter to sent to investors Tuesday, Mr. Anderson said: "The losses were primarily caused by a substantial sell-off in a number of our energy, mining and resource equity holdings during a six-week period characterized by some of the sharpest declines in these sectors in the past 10 to 20 years."
The fund was shut down, the letter said, because any loss greater than 30% triggered a provision that allowed investors in the fund to pull money out as they wished, resulting in Ospraie's decision to wind down the fund and return money to its clients, according to a letter Losing bets on energy and resource stocks helped pare the fund from $2.8 billion in assets at the start of August, according to a person familiar with the fund. A spokesman for the New York-based Ospraie declined to comment. The Ospraie Fund started investing in February 2000 and returned about 15% a year, on average, until it hit trouble this year.
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Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 09/Sep/2008 at 10:08am
Opec agrees to cut oil production. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7607508.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7607508.stm
I guess, $100 per barrel is here to stay.
------------- While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2008 at 9:05pm
Crude comes very close to two digit mark. Made new low USD @ 100.1
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Posted By: bassein
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2008 at 7:40am
Originally posted by paragdesai
Crude comes very close to two digit mark. Made new low USD @ 100.1 |
But India may not get the full benefit since the rupee is depreciating against the dollar.
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2008 at 8:26am
Originally posted by bassein
Originally posted by paragdesai
Crude comes very close to two digit mark. Made new low USD @ 100.1 |
But India may not get the full benefit since the rupee is depreciating against the dollar.
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Yes our GOI & state Govt. are very much dependent (almost 45-60%) on revenue from OIL sector like Excise, Custom, Vat, Dividend from OIL PSU. With widening of physical deficit & appreciating rupee is the worst case scenario for us. So they are considering reduction of retail Diesel price some where next month so Inflation can be kept under tight control. They have also considering zero subsidy for their bulk industrial diesel buyer. That means they will pay for almost Rs. 53-57 per liter of diesel.
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Posted By: master
Date Posted: 09/Oct/2008 at 9:41am
Crude Oil Falls to 1-Year Low as Economic Crisis Curbs Demand
Crude oil tumbled to the lowest in a year and copper fell as demand dropped and stock markets plunged on concern the global credit crisis will push countries including the U.S. into a recession.
Oil was at the lowest since October 2007 and copper traded at its weakest since March 2006 after the http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=INDU%3AIND - Dow Jones Industrial Average yesterday dropped below 9,000 for the first time since 2003. OPEC, supplier of about 40 percent of the world's oil, signaled yesterday it may cut output at an emergency meeting on Nov. 18.
``It's worrying. Equity markets are falling dramatically, the credit crisis is spreading and the outlook remains poor,'' said http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=David+Moore&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1 - David Moore , the commodity strategist at Commonwealth Bank of Australia in Sydney. ``OPEC has to be cautious and may only make moderate cuts as they won't want to be seen as exacerbating any economic slowdown.''
Crude oil for November delivery fell as much as $4.49, or 5.2 percent, to $82.10 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Futures were at $82.30 at 10:29 a.m. Singapore time. Futures have fallen 44 percent from a record $147.27 a barrel reached on July 11.
------------- Someone’s sitting in shade today because someone planted a tree long time ago.
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 10/Oct/2008 at 7:28pm
Crude OIL is also tumbled. Trading @ USD 80
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Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 11/Oct/2008 at 2:46am
Guess what, it was these hedge funds that caused the bull market in crude. (What a coincidence that GS came out with a bullish report on oil at the same time. )
------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.
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Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 12/Oct/2008 at 1:06pm
it was the last act of desperation before the cat was let out of the bag.telling the world that oil will go to 200 was giving a secret message that we investmnt banks had already gone burst
------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 13/Oct/2008 at 1:25pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Crude_prices_could_fall_to_50_a_barrel_Goldman_Sachs/articleshow/3588578.cms -
Crude prices could fall to $50 a barrel: Goldman Sachs
What an U Turn.
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Posted By: India_Bull
Date Posted: 13/Oct/2008 at 1:28pm
If I remember correctly Goldman Sachs scared the world with its prediction of 200 usd/bl and now they r saying 50 USD/bl.. More and more closures of their branches will make them retain good analysts to have ear on ground.
------------- India_Bull forever Bull !
www.kapilcomedynights.com
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Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 13/Oct/2008 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by India_Bull
If I remember correctly Goldman Sachs scared the world with its prediction of 200 usd/bl and now they r saying 50 USD/bl.. More and more closures of their branches will make them retain good analysts to have ear on ground. |
OR MAYBE they are no better than CITI and MERRIL making recommendations after taking positions. IT IS so obvious oil's bull run and especially crash was due to speculative positions by hedge funds and not due to OPEC. All the stories about falling yields of oil fields and supply disruption was a smokescreen. Any surprise that PAULSON is US TREASURY SECRETARY.
------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.
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Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 16/Jun/2011 at 9:28pm
Looks like Europe is looking at putting curbs on commodity speculation. This is good news for Equities.
Barnier considers tough rules on commodities
Sarkozy leads calls for greater regulation amid concern about the size of trades being made.
http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/barnier-considers-tough-rules-on-commodities/71339.aspx
------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.
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