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Indian Stocks – Time to aggressively load on!

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Market Strategies
Forum Name: Identifying Multibaggers
Forum Discription: Discuss specific attributes that investors could look at while choosing multibaggers. Also point out certain factors that investors tend to overlook while finding multibaggers.
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1648
Printed Date: 26/Jun/2024 at 4:21pm


Topic: Indian Stocks – Time to aggressively load on!
Posted By: basant
Subject: Indian Stocks – Time to aggressively load on!
Date Posted: 04/Mar/2008 at 6:37pm

Indian Stocks – Time to aggressively load on!

 

My last article on October 07, 2007 titled “ http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1267 -  

a)      Actually raising cash and then re-deploying when the trend changes. I know no one who has been successful at this. If you sell at the highs then as the market falls your mind tells you that your initial decision of selling at the highs were correct and to actually transact diametrically opposite to a decision that has been proved correct by the market is almost impossible. The fear within the investor almost never lets him enter at the bottom.

 

b)      By avoiding stocks that look frothy or where earnings could be in trouble and where the management pulls all the tricks from its bag to help create a market cap.

 

 

In my case I opted for option (b) but for the moment we have all become poorer unless anyone was 100% in cash.

 

The markets seem to be pricing in all the bad events, US recession, Indian election and are hesitant to make a major move ahead. While all of us know that political instability does not affect the markets in the longer run it does however make the foreign investors extremely jittery about putting in further cash.

 

The reality check: India’s GDP should grow at between 8% - 10% for the next couple of years; we add inflation as 5% and what we get is a nominal growth of 13% - 15%. Now if the average Joe on the street is growing at 13%-15% it would not take a big effort for the top 30 companies not to grow at a 5% premium to that or at something closer to 20%.

 

The sensex should report an EPS of Rs 1050 for Fy 09 and some companies in the sensex have subsidiaries that are not yet contributing to the bottomline. ICICI, Reliance are two such examples and it is estimated that such subsidiaries shall contribute around 2000 points to the index.

 

So adjusting for those subsidiaries our index trades at (16,300-2000)/1050 = 13.6 times Fy09. Incidentally the index has never traded at lower then 12 times in its entire lifetime!

 

Bear Market Case: If we are presenting a bear market case for India then this premise can arise only from these possibilities:

 

a)      Our GDP growth actually slows down to 6% which (I shall later explain) looks extremely improbable.

 

b)      Some of our companies report losses because of corporate action forex derivative losses, sub prime exposure (limited to banking companies only and also immaterial compared to the balance sheet size of those companies). In this case the sensex companies will show declining profits even as the GDP continues to grow as per our assumptions.

 

c)       Some sort of a specific scam/scandal erupts where a major industrial group or a fund house is charged with improper dealings.

 

d)      The US goes into a tailspin recession and carries the entire global markets with it. Though in that case our GDP could be affected by a 100-150 bps the overall impact will be minimal. Liquidity/fund flows are short term events and in the longer term liquidity will find its way into good stocks.

 

A point which should be noted here is that points (b) (c) and (d) are one off events and should not affect the markets in the longer run. In the short run they can cause massive havoc as they have al the ingredients to affect sentiments and markets are full of emotions.

 

GDP Growth could touch 10% - Our savings rate and investment rates are at closer to 32% -34% and backed by the recent changes in the budget should grow upwards from here. Assuming an FDI flow of 2% of GDP (US $ 20 bn) the economy’s potential capital formation works out to 36% over the next couple of years.

 

Using the - ICOR 

Now if India has built all the roads, bridges, ports, power such heavy investments in infrastructure should create an increase in productivity. I assume an increase in productivity as a buffer or a margin of safety. For example once the golden quadrangle is completed a truck can move from Delhi to Mumbai in 24 hours instead of a few days just imagine the kind of gains it can result in for the system.

 

Final view: So for the investor who wants to have a longer term view of things this is almost a great time to buy stocks and get into the Indian story. Stocks are discounting all the bad news worst and at worst we could go down 10% and test our all time low on the forward PE basis.

 

The next big trigger that markets are waiting for is the interest rate cut and the bulls should be on their feet again before that cut is officially announced.

 

This bull market is very much alive and kicking and at the cost of putting my head out I would like to assume that we will see significantly higher levels before we get into an extended bear hug. This is as good a time to buy stocks.

 

As investors it will be more comforting to think the sensex at about 14 times FY 09 then getting obsessed with what is happening around us.



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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in



Replies:
Posted By: tuxlearner
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 2:13pm
Very Very valuable information, Basantji. Thanks a lot for posting.

Just Another Testimony to the Great Sage's words -

"BE FEARFUL WHEN EVERYONE's GREEDY , BE GREEDY WHEN EVERYONE's FEARFUL"


Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 2:26pm

with regards to interest rates i will assume that INFLATION being a political issue and that we r in an election year it could remain unchanged till yr end.dr reddy would like to see where food and crude prices reach  plus the effect of budgetary prposals before deciding on interest rates  till then lets assume that rates remain at current levels.



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understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 2:41pm
Basant sir ClapClap.....Clap
 
 


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 2:46pm

Basantji  one more point ..this is not the way a bull market ends right ? so as you mentioned "we will see significantly higher levels before we get into an extended bear hug " will most likely be the case.



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Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap


Posted By: catchsudipto
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 2:58pm

Excellent Article Sir. Clap  



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Make your Life as simple as possible.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by nitin_jagtap

Basantji  one more point ..this is not the way a bull market ends right ? so as you mentioned "we will see significantly higher levels before we get into an extended bear hug " will most likely be the case.

 
Can you have a bear market when everyone and his brother is sitting on cash. Mfs have more then US $ 4 bilion to invest in; there is complete lack of belief in stocks and everyone is expecting a big downside.For this market to be called a bear market:
 
a) Earnings have to break down.
b) Once (a) happens PE will appear expensive.
c) Unless earnings break down we cannot have a bear market with stocks trading at PEs of 14 times forward!
 
 
Tiger: While the biggest trigger is interest rate I doubt if markets will wait for the actual policy to be announced. They will try and pre-empt the announcement.
 
Originally posted by tunlearner

you have  said "ICICI, Reliance are two such examples and it is estimated that such subsidiaries shall contribute around 2000 points to the index"

can you please tellme how do you count the value of the subsidaries and thus their contribution to the sensex ?

You take out the market cap of the subsidiaries and then find out the percentage that these market caps bear to the total index market cap and then propotionately convert that into numbers.
 
BTW I did not calculate that number it is available in most of the brokerage reports.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: catchsudipto
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:19pm
Sir what about the petro-dollar? where will this huze sum of money ( sunami) flow in considering oil is at 104 per barrel.

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Make your Life as simple as possible.


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:23pm

I have a few questios:

1.Is high crude price not a significant risk when we are so majorly dependent upon imported crude.
 
2.Even though markets may bounce back, and I am not contesting for/against it, yet the leadership may shift quite dramatically. Am asking this in my capacity as an individual stock investor and not an investor in indices.


Posted By: ThinkDifferent
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:36pm
ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap

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I am an Amateur in Stocks.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:46pm
Unless you have an extraordinary theme stocks will either langish or decline unless the indices move up.
 
We have handled crude when it went up 5 times from US $ 20 to US $ 100 and I was by chance the person who had written about this  on    January 05, 2005. See http://www.valuenotes.com/BMaheshwari/bm_crudefacts_05Jan05.asp?ArtCd=34609&Cat=I&Id=155 - this link . Mind you I have no knowledge about how these things work.
 
So if we could handle a 5 bagger in crude I think we can adjust to some upside from here also.
 
 
Originally posted by catchsudipto

Sir what about the petro-dollar? where will this huze sum of money ( sunami) flow in considering oil is at 104 per barrel.
 
This one answers the problem of crude, higher the prices of crude higher the capacity of petrodoillar to help us overcome the crude shock!
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by basant

Indian Stocks – Time to aggressively load on!

 

GDP Growth could touch 10% - Our savings rate and investment rates are at closer to 32% -34% and backed by the recent changes in the budget should grow upwards from here. Assuming an FDI flow of 2% of GDP (US $ 20 bn) the economy’s potential capital formation works out to 36% over the next couple of years.

 

 
Dear Basant,
 
Can u tell us from where we can get reliable figures of savings rate?
 
I did not pay attention in school as well as college due to family circumstances. So the only savings rate that i understand is bank saving a/c interest rate.
 
In reality my inflation rate is more than double the rate of our govt. So wud like to know the real figure of savings rate. I have my own doubts about this. Because in my circle actual savings rate is not more than 10%. In some cases it is less than 5&.
 
Best wishes to a wise fellow.
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 3:59pm

Could there be any global circumstances under which foreign money keeps going out of the Indian markets for a long period of time (say 6 - 12 months)? US recession, mortgage losses weakening global financial giants etc?

While I do agree that it is a good time to load on, we might still find the markets at a lower level or remain range-bound with a downward bias. If one could make a rough guesstimate as to how long the markets will remain in this condition, one can invest the surplus cash over such a period.
 
Now, if the market shoots up before you manage to invest all the money, then great - go on a holiday, buy your wife some jewellery or treat yourself with a new car. If the market does not shoot up and remains like it is, you will be psychologically better off - since there is always some money to invest whenever the market goes down.


Posted By: Musketeer
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:12pm
Citibank has started shedding some of its flab.
Link: http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN055622120080306 - Citigroup sells, closes some of its US branches
 
But one thing to note is that some of these foreigners would be smart enough to keep some money invested in high-growth opportunities like India. Initially, they'll shake off the non-performing or slow-growth holdings they have.


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Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:21pm
 Can u tell us from where we can get reliable figures of savings rate?
 
Bubble can answer this in a better way but savings rates are released by the Govt. RBI and through the Economic Survey.Broadly they are reliable because with a10% savings rate our GDP should be 2.5% which seems out of context.
 
Could there be any global circumstances under which foreign money keeps going out of the Indian markets for a long period of time (say 6 - 12 months)? US recession, mortgage losses weakening global financial giants etc
 
Where will the money go? It would not be put under the pillow. No one would like to buy Citi Bank and sell ICICI bank. For the moment the money is elusive and will come back.Money will chase assets and whether the assets are oil, gold, silver, copper or emerging markets equity it will move away from where the trouble is and get into areas that are relatively insulated.
 
Did we not see how the so called smart money managers put in more then US $ 100 bn in a company that was selling hope. When the damm thing listed they do not want it now. Even banks with balance sheet of Rs 30,000 crores lost 45 days of profit in this flipping game.
 
Most of the MF managers are sitting and waiting for the sensex to move up but the moment someone makes the first move others will rush in to buy. There could be a buyers panic.
 
While I do agree that it is a good time to load on, we might still find the markets at a lower level or remain range-bound with a downward bias. If one could make a rough guesstimate as to how long the markets will remain in this condition, one can invest the surplus cash over such a period. 
 
About stocks drifting downwards you are right we may get it lower but we buy stocks because we see that they are attractive and we sell stocks because they become expensive not because their price could move down or up.
 
Didn't someone say that trying to catch the bottom gets you a handful of sh*t!!!
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: ThinkDifferent
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:22pm
Basant-Sir,

This leads us to the most important question of all.  Is it a good time to leverage?

I think You have said in other threads that one can leverage during some special circumstances.  Is this one such special situation where one can take a personal loan to buy shares?




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I am an Amateur in Stocks.


Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by ThinkDifferent

Basant-Sir,

This leads us to the most important question of all.  Is it a good time to leverage?

I think You have said in other threads that one can leverage during some special circumstances.  Is this one such special situation where one can take a personal loan to buy shares?


 
ThinkDifferent: IMO
 
WB has said it quite well. One should not risk somethings which is important (in this case solvency, capital etc) for something less important (over sized gains) if there is some probablity of failure.
 
Just my two bits 


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"Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet


Posted By: Ajith
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:48pm
  Even if Sensex falls 10 percent,the fall will be narrow and some stocks and sectors will outperform hereon.

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Ajith


Posted By: Musketeer
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:50pm
That was very well put. Full of deep insight. Big%20smile
ThinkDifferent: This is a time to put in investible cash you may be having or realigning your portfolio to choose the best horses (though there is never a wrong time for this). But this is not a time to withdraw cash from the market, atleast in my view.


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Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by basant

Didn't someone say that trying to catch the bottom gets you a handful of sh*t!!!
 
 
Yra Harris, Plexis Asset Management, Chicago IL


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by ThinkDifferent

Basant-Sir,

This leads us to the most important question of all.  Is it a good time to leverage?

I think You have said in other threads that one can leverage during some special circumstances.  Is this one such special situation where one can take a personal loan to buy shares?


 
I am not averse to leverage provided it is not in the F&O market because then your broker does not make you buy and sell for his own vested interest. If you are buying on a personal loan ensure that the loan component is not more then 20% of the total equity. For example if you have Rs 80 take Rs 20 and make it upto Rs 100 so Rs 20 is 20% of the loan amount. That will help you survive from a bad day.
 
If you are working and have aregular flow of income you could leverage and pay off your investment in 24-36 months! When you can have your car on installment why not your investment provided you can stay solvent for the entire length of the loan tenure.
 
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: hkumar
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 5:03pm

Basant ji, excellent analysis!!

 

I do agree that long term market is in bullish trend but does catching a falling knife make sense? Isn’t it better to wait and start investing when there is some light at the end of tunnel?

 

Given the US recession a distinct possibility, banks started disclosing the exposures and figures of GDP growth getting revised downward… I feel to sit on cash for some more time and start investing when things start looking little bright.

 

I do remember before the start of this bull-run many blue chip companies were available at throw away prices and there were no buyers and SENSEX was languishing around 2800



Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 5:06pm
When you can have your car on installment why not your investment 
 
That's an interesting quote.
 
Can I write off my interest costs against short term capital gains?


Posted By: hkumar
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by smartcat

When you can have your car on installment why not your investment 
 
That's an interesting quote.
 
Can I write off my interest costs against short term capital gains?
 
No, to do that you need to show the gains as business gains.


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 5:27pm
ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
Thumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpThumbs%20UpThumbs%20Up

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happy & wise investing


Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 5:29pm
I am already seeing some huge buy orders tomorrow at the starting bell ...cheers to all of us.

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Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap


Posted By: chetan
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:15pm
 In current market scenario very few things can be said with "absolute certainity". One of them is "loaned funds should not be invested in the market until uncertainity over sub-prime factor clears."

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SUCCESS IS THE ABILITY TO BE
GOOD ON YOUR OWN TERMS-CHETAN


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:20pm
While leverage is a personal discretion we may not get the index at 16,300 once the uncertainity clears up. The question is about a risk reward ratio - always.
 
This does not mean that one should be leveraging right from opening bell tomorrow!
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:21pm
Leverage is something that I would not advise anyone. It is best kept in the hands of experts like Basant sir, who know how to handle the situation. I for one, have not quite understood how to use it in a proper way...and hence am staying far away from it!

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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:27pm
Leveraging when there is uncertainity say like in 2002 or 2003 made perfect sense..when everything becomes clear leveraging has to be done with utmost care.

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Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:30pm
Although I have no clue what will happen tomorrow, but 2 of our big companies are likely to be good beneficiary of such high crude prices-Reliance Industries and ONGC. If these 2 do well from here, indices can surely do well. Another set of companies which may play the role of oxygen in the fire can be a HUL and an ITC. Also, Hero and Bajaj Auto may start kicking.....so true, markets may surely do well from hereon. Banking, IT may continue to sluggish becuse of their US overhang.
 
If I can recognise one theme gradually appearing on the horizon, it will be cognisance of the resource crunch which we will be facing if we continue with our lives like we are doing. So, companies holding such prized assets like crude, metals, minerals shall do well. Along with them, companies which facilitate better harnessing or better exploitation of such critical resources should also do well . And companies which are into the business of developing alternatives to such critical resources should also do well.....


Posted By: prasham77
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:48pm
I am posting here my comments - I have already posted on other group today morning.

I am a buyer on any panic day.

Already deployed 1/4 of the available cash which I had raised in the month of January by selling all my short/medium/long term holds.

Now again getting ready for investing my 1/4 in coming week by March 15 on any down day or target levels of 4400 whichever comes first ( because it can come even in one day ) Will wait patiently at deep bottoms - with my lap open for any distress sale.

1/4 invested at 4800
1/4 will invest at 4400 Big%20smile
1/4 will invest at 3600 if it comes LOL
1/4 - I always speculate and do all dirty things we can imagine in stock markets - generally on tips or news from sources - normally F&O

Have upgraded to 12 demat accounts from 9 - thanks to my uncles and aunties - so am getting myself ready for the forthcoming new issues - Coal India, MCX and NHPC.

Time horizon for remaining invested is upto coming next year 2009 elections or a new high in NIFTY around 7000 whichever comes first. Will not look at my investments before that.

At the moment, I am ready to see 25% downside in any of the pick after I buy - if there is no change in inherent fundamentals.

AND - to add . I am learning a lot in TED Clap and maybe I keep on improving here and change with the guidance of you all seniors.

-Regards


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Let it be simple


Posted By: ThinkDifferent
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:55pm
What is this "other group"?

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I am an Amateur in Stocks.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by prasham77

Time horizon for remaining invested is upto coming next year 2009 elections or a new high in NIFTY around 7000 whichever comes first. Will not look at my investments before that.

 
Not sure about the Nifty but you would not have to wait till 2009 for elections.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: italics
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 7:28pm
If you buy the argument that this is the Time to load up aggressively - and i do - then the next logical question is - which stocks do you load up on?
 
My stock universe for the moment is the TED XI since these are some of the most well researched stocks around - thanks to all the Teddies!
 
So which of these offer the most compelling buys ie which offer the best margin of safety, or risk/reward ratio?
 
Assuming you're lucky enough to be sitting on cash, which stocks would you load up on now, given its great valuation?
I know these are extremely personal choices and ones that we wouldn't normally share with others, but even then it would great to hear Basantji and others views on what offers the best value at these prices? 
 
The other thought i had in mind was that if the sensex offers great value at these levels, doesn't it make sense to buy an index fund now, or at least put some money in one. Does anyone have an opinion on index funds and which are the decent ones from the current lot?


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 7:36pm
Interesting & logical prognosis by BM.
 
Purely from sentiments viewpoint we may need more or rather http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=808&KW=pessimism&PID=40973#40973 - lot more fuel for a 'sustainable' rally.
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 7:42pm
Buy MSGF instead of the sensex. It is getting open ended and you have some discount there as well. My choices are the same as before no changes there except the price and the PE => Thankfully the EPS remains same and that is more important.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 7:52pm
Basantji,
Excellent writeup.
Based on this perspective we should review the outlook on individual stocks in Ted XI and see if the story has changed on any of them. ie. fundamentally  and/or growth/valuation basis. 

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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: tuxlearner
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Mohan

Basantji,
Excellent writeup.
Based on this perspective we should review the outlook on individual stocks in Ted XI and see if the story has changed on any of them. ie. fundamentally  and/or growth/valuation basis. 



i would second mohanji on that.. valuable inputs would be mutually beneficial to all TEDies........


Cheers....! Smile


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 8:36pm

Dear basantji,

Great article Clap. I expect a FY09 sensex EPS of 1050 and FY10 EPS of 1150. This will give a FY09 p/e of 13.8 and FY10 p/e of 12.6
 
I reiterate my (optimistic) sensex target of 28000 in 2008 or early(Q1) 2009.
 
vijay


Posted By: mr.amd
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:08pm
Now that dow as well as all europian markets are down today, it seems that sensenx will tank again tomorrow.   So tomorrow might present a good buying opportunity. 
Its an excellent analysis from Basantji, but I got no spare money left to invest Big%20smile, as I am now sitting on a loss of about 12% now(this happened over last week).  Unlesss I sell some shares at a loss and buy some new ones from proceeds, People like me have no option but to ride the wave and get down when its safe to do so.
 
 


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:27pm
Hey, my article does not mean that we will start moving up from tomorrow. It is more of a statement of risk - reward from these levels.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Ajith
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:29pm
     Averaging down-especially with leverage- can turn out to be a foolish strategy as many have discovered in earlier meltdowns.
     As far as I am concerned,the biggest risk is the Dow not adequately falling to discount bad times ahead.If it had fallen steeply enough the Sensex would by now have decoupled and we could say more confidently that it may be an opportune time to buy.Now only the brave will venture to buy and they may or may not have to face a torrid time ahead......
      


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Ajith


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:41pm
Excellent thesis.
 
I agree that with Investment & Savings rate at 34-36%, GDP growth of 9% is quite feasible.
 
But what do you think about the substantial slowdown in the manufacturing and IIP numbers that we have witnessed over the last few months ?
 
Do you think the GDP coming down to 8.5% from 9.6%(FY06-FY07) completely captures and reflects the IIP slowdown ?


Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:51pm
[QUOTE=Mohan]Basantji,
Excellent writeup.
Based on this perspective we should review the outlook on individual stocks in Ted XI and see if the story has changed on any of them. ie. fundamentally  and/or growth/valuation basis.  [/QU                to do this we may have to wait for a month or so .q4 results and guidance if any will tell us if pe is contracting  selling if done bfor that would be like playing blind.what do you think

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understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:53pm
It could for a year but if interest rates are cut GDP will bounce back. As it is we will see increased spending because goods become cheaper on one end (tax cuts) and people have more money on the other (change in tax slabs).The biggest money will be made in companies that cater to a domestic audiance.
 
Now I have heard plenty of people talk about markets falling even while the economy was growing. In all those instances markets fell because they were driven up to 35 to 70 times earnings!!!
 
Can we fall from a 14 PE market and become a 7 PE market. If that is the premise then I am willing to bet against a 7 PE market.
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Vivek Sukhani

Although I have no clue what will happen tomorrow, but 2 of our big companies are likely to be good beneficiary of such high crude prices-Reliance Industries and ONGC. If these 2 do well from here, indices can surely do well. Another set of companies which may play the role of oxygen in the fire can be a HUL and an ITC. Also, Hero and Bajaj Auto may start kicking.....so true, markets may surely do well from hereon. Banking, IT may continue to sluggish becuse of their US overhang.
 
If I can recognise one theme gradually appearing on the horizon, it will be cognisance of the resource crunch which we will be facing if we continue with our lives like we are doing. So, companies holding such prized assets like crude, metals, minerals shall do well. Along with them, companies which facilitate better harnessing or better exploitation of such critical resources should also do well . And companies which are into the business of developing alternatives to such critical resources should also do well.....
RELIANCE IND?people seem to have forgotten this company these days see how things change emotionally in just 2 months!obiviously a major beneficiary of rising crude and gas prices

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understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things


Posted By: Ajith
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 10:09pm
    
     A  10-20 percent fall  in Sensex from current levels is possible from current levels given the current outlook and thats keeping marketmen on the sidelines.Its a tossup as to which way sentiment will swing in the short-run.
          Personally,I hope to zero in on a range of stocks that will buck even a falling trend and thats what TED  focuses on and thats great.
Also to remember is that in a message board if one says banking stocks are good and next moment there should be flexibility to change one's opinion(this does not happen as often as one would like and that is not quite right) and this is just an example to illustrate the point of herd mentality that
can come about .


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Ajith


Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 10:14pm
Suddenly everyone has turned bullish thanks to Basantji's article.
 
In BS, there is an article which says that FII's are sitting on cash, waiting for the market to stabilise.
 
SA seemed confident that Indian markets will hit their life highs in 2008. No wonder he remains bullish on Insurance, brokerages, AMCs...Financials constitute 24% of our Index which is a GOOD news !


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"You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett


Posted By: Ajith
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 10:19pm
    This is the first time I am hearing SA is bullish on Insurance,brokerages.....thats great news.

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Ajith


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Ajith

As far as I am concerned,the biggest risk is the Dow not adequately falling to discount bad times ahead.If it had fallen steeply enough the Sensex would by now have decoupled       
 
Excellent post Ajith sir. Thanks for sharing it with us!


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: atulbull
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 11:11pm

Thursday, March 06, 2008

A tsunami of liquidity

Source: Mint

We’ve heard a lot about how the credit crunch in the Western financial markets is affecting liquidity. Huge losses have punched a hole in the balance sheets of US and European banks and till such time they are able to repair their net worth, their ability to lend will remain impaired. That has hurt liquidity. But there’s a flip side to the story.

High oil prices have led to windfall gains by oil exporters. That money has to go somewhere. So far, what seems to be happening is that countries in the Persian Gulf region that have their currencies pegged to the dollar, are seeing a big rise in inflation as their central banks mop up dollars and release the local currency into their money markets. Foreign exchange reserves held by these countries are rising.

Moreover, the magnitude of the rise in dollar gains is truly staggering. According to a research note from Morgan Stanley, A Petrodollar Tsunami Warning by Stephen Jen and Charles St-Arnaud, the market value of annual cross-border oil flows is around $2 trillion (Rs80 trillion), evenly split among Gulf Co-Operation Council (GCC), non-GCC and non-Opec oil ­exporters. While part of the oil receipts—Morgan Stanley’s estimate is 10%—will be invested by these countries within their borders, in infrastructure and the like, the bulk of the windfall will find its way into global financial markets. The note says that about half of it is likely to be invested by sovereign wealth funds, with the rest being direct investments in financial assets. The note ends with the dramatic flourish: “A tsunami is coming.”

At the moment, much of the money is going either into US bonds or, through sovereign wealth funds, into US financial institutions. But with the slowdown in the US and a falling dollar, it makes sense to diversify holdings. Indian markets should benefit, just as Indian engineering firms are already profiting from the boom in West Asia.



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Price is what you pay.Value is what you get.


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 2:19am
Basant,
 
Quick questions.
How did you arrive at the Rs 1050 EPS figure ? What's the TTM EPS ?
Looking at NIFTY statistics on NSEIndia.com , it seems like NIFTY is still trading at a PE of 20+


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:21am
Rs 1050 is the consensus estimates of most of the brokerages 1% here or there.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:31am
Basant Sir,
Thanks for the write up.  It helped me to stay focussed.


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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:53am
i know it is good to be optimistic but it is possible to have a 6 month downturn

there are some important things to notice here

subprime problem has had a cascading effect ...the so called petro money wont be available if there are credit defaults and credit card defualts....what if some banks blow off ....people didnt know till Enron happened .

why should bernanke come and urge to forgive portion of mortgages

consider UK nation wide confidance is down

the recent one in India ..ICICI says or claimes to have sub prime exposure ...now they could have come out and said that ...were they waiting for the minister in the parliament to raise the questions

another i noted is a company like Unitech..they had some capital raising plans..they scraped the issue ...there was some article on this in business standard i am trying t search for it ...said something like this

BS just went and blamed "instability in domestic markets and global liquidity crunch".


___________
another thing whihc is happening in the maharashtra front ..if i am not wrong major auto components are made in pune ...baaj auto ,GM motors ..etc there could be some impact ..dont knwo what is the degree...


________________________

Why arent the Mutual funds buying do they see a substantial downside ... i dont have answers being bullish is great but being careful is also important ....i hope i have put few things across it is not in order but i am glad to argue and come to a conclusion ...i am also a small investor and still invested but protecting my capital is the most important thing i see right now ...that doesnt mean the world is coming to an end

but after the ICICI thing my confidance is shaken a little ...the lack of transperancy is worrying ..i also hpe that we stablisze and rally back but things are little alarming...please throw in your thoughts and correct me if i am wrong


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 6:56am
 ...expect a FY09 sensex EPS of 1050 and FY10 EPS of 1150.
 
Few queries about indices, multiples:
 
  1. FY10 growth estimate is below 10% on yoy basis.
  2. Could the market then be able to trade at >12 multiples?
Having said that, my focus shall be on individual stocks only.


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 7:58am
While investigating the Sensex EPS, I came across - this article by Deepak Shenoy. Very good analysis and breakdown but I have a simple question.

Shouldn't the Sensex PE be = (Free float Weighted Market cap) / (Free float weighted Earnings) ?
In that case the Sensex PE would still be on the overvalued side.

Let's try to nail down the exact methodology for calculating the Sensex EPS and PE.


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 11:02am
Originally posted by basant

It could for a year but if interest rates are cut GDP will bounce back. As it is we will see increased spending because goods become cheaper on one end (tax cuts) and people have more money on the other (change in tax slabs).The biggest money will be made in companies that cater to a domestic audiance.
 
Can we fall from a 14 PE market and become a 7 PE market. If that is the premise then I am willing to bet against a 7 PE market.
 
 
7 PE looks impossible. But i have a saying in my Investment Manual: Anything can happen and anything is possible in stock market panics on both bull and bear sides.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 11:06am
Originally posted by basant

Hey, my article does not mean that we will start moving up from tomorrow. It is more of a statement of risk - reward from these levels.
 
Hi Friends,
 
Somehow I feel there will be very good buying opportunities in B group shares in coming days. The way they have fallen, MOS has gone up tremendously.
 
Best wishes,


-------------
I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 06/Mar/2008 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Janak.merchant1

Hi Friends,
 
Somehow I feel there will be very good buying opportunities in B group shares in coming days. The way they have fallen, MOS has gone up tremendously.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM
 
If it is not inconvenient, could you please share the stock ideas that are on your radar.
 
 
 
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: italics
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 12:45pm
Basantji does MSGF = Morgan Stanley growth fund?
 
 
I think it will become open ended only in Feb 2009. And it has had terrible press through out the years - remember MS Shoes, etc? Does anyone have an opinion on Benchmark's index funds? Any other good index funds in the market with a low tracking error?
 
Do let me know. Thanks


Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 12:58pm
My question to all TEDIs:
  1. How many people do we know who are earning less do the decline in the markets??
 2. How many of us are not eating out??
 3. What are the new projects that were starting or had started stoping.??
Has any thing changed other than the notional profits that were reflected in our accounts .Will India grow slower than US or the development of India is linked to only It. Have some faith in the indegenous growth story.We will recover and most of us who have not purchased in this carnage will kick ourself.
This market is not a reflection on India the growth story.It is the IDIOCY of the Gora smart deal makers who devised more and more devious ways to get fatter and fatter pay cheques!!!!


Posted By: italics
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 1:09pm
Yeah janak if you're ok with disclosing a company that has caught your fancy, it would be great. But i can understand if you wouldn't want to make your thoughts public.
 
Just as a note of caution, i would like to say that i just spoke to a good friend of mine. He's a Technical Analyst, but i don't hold that against him
Wink And he's a worried man. This is not someone who i take lightly, and this person is not someone who throws his opinions around just like that.
 
My point is that some very dedicated and intelligent people are looking at the markets right now, and are worried. Since this thread has both the words "aggressively" and "leverage" used in it, i would advice everyone, particulary new members and newbies to the markets, to tread very cautiously. Please do your own through research and please be aware that for every optimist at these levels there is an equally experienced and learned pessimist. Hear out both sides and then make up your mind, most importantly understand the company and business you are buying.
Do not rush in.
 
There will more bull markets, and bear markets, spend this time learning and understanding and you'll make money in both. Jump in blind and you may never recover.
 
I just realised that a lot of people on TED are in their early 20s and have probably no recollection of a bear market, or how tough life can be. They've grown up in a climate of exces and plenty. That's why this long bhashaan!!
 
remember the markets can remain volatile/bearish longer than you can remain solvent!
 
hope i didn't bore too many of youSmile
 


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 1:27pm
I still assume that the rewards are far higher from these levels. It is just a question of being able to adjust to the reality of the earnings of companies  and move away from all that is happening on all TV channels.
 
Obviously we cannot bet on power and all such stocks for a rally. But if investors choose companies which will show sustained earnings growth then there is nothing to worry from.
 
I hope I am not looking stubborn doing this because my only bet is if earnings do not fall can we go down from a 14PE market to a 7 PE market.Seems highly unlikely and improbable
 
Italics: That post is a must read for everyone whether he is in the markets for 3 years or for 13! No one can ever risk being wiped out with the waves.
 
Why I use the word leverage is because I used it to some good effect in 2001 and while I admit that I was lucky it did work out well for me.
 
The biggest problem that people face when on leverage is when stocks go down because then you make up for the losses along with the interest.
 
This is where I wrote about my endevour with leverage:
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=290 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=290 ]
 
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by kulman

Originally posted by Janak.merchant1

Hi Friends,
 
Somehow I feel there will be very good buying opportunities in B group shares in coming days. The way they have fallen, MOS has gone up tremendously.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM
 
If it is not inconvenient, could you please share the stock ideas that are on your radar.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Dear Kulman,
 
Pl notice the words "coming days"  Not Now.
 
We have seen how the markets can behave. In the sort run.
 
I prefer keeping my cash. Not becoz i know but becoz i m confused. As on today, i do not have much clarity.
 
I can see few compelling valuations where risk reward ratio seems to be favorable.
 
So if those stocks come down now by 25% in B group, i m willing to switch 25% of my C group to B group.
 
Best wishes,
 
 


-------------
I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 1:48pm
it shows us that no one has conviction in India ,...all mutual fund mangers are chickens  and they also see who is buying ...with 4 billion $ they ar ewaiting for some more downside ...i think not this is a huge conspiracy of the rich people doing the poor people ......dont knwo if it is a better idea to stay in cash but i think we can sleep better


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by italics

Yeah janak if you're ok with disclosing a company that has caught your fancy, it would be great. But i can understand if you wouldn't want to make your thoughts public.
 
Just as a note of caution, i would like to say that i just spoke to a good friend of mine. He's a Technical Analyst, but i don't hold that against him
Wink And he's a worried man. This is not someone who i take lightly, and this person is not someone who throws his opinions around just like that.
 
My point is that some very dedicated and intelligent people are looking at the markets right now, and are worried.  
 
Hi italics,
 
How r the trends in the advertisement world? Are there any signs of a slowdown?
 
Do u know anybody who is not worried? Every investor is. That is what i feel. However I know few who are not worried. Very few.
 
Best wishes,


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: BGKGURU
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 2:15pm
I HAVE SEEN THIS MKT MANT TIMES FROM LAST 10-12 YEARS,BUT IF MONEY GOES I REALLY WORRIED. 
I AGREE WITH BASANTJI LONG TERM IS STILL INTACT,
I M BULLISH BECAUSE OF FOLLOWING POINTS(MANY POINTS WERE COVERED ABOVE)-
 
SAVING-VERY SMALL AMT IN EQUITY
ECONOMY-WE WILL SEE MAJOR CHANGES IN INDIAN ECONOMY, BETWEEN  2008-2010 LIKE RPL REFINERY COMPLETION,GAS AVAILABILTY TO POWER,FERTILIZER ETC.,MAJOR CHANGE IN CONSUMER  TASTE,GOVT./CORPORATE THRUST IN RURAL/AGRICULTURE ,VARIOUS OTHER OUTSOURCING LIKE AUTO.
 
I M ONLY CONCERNED ABT  PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE,POWER EXECUTION,LABOUR LAWS, FREE ECONOMY FOR OIL/SUGAR/FERTILIZER,NOW BANKS ALSO.


Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 3:01pm

Great discussion Basant jee & Tedies – it’s good to see some clarity amidst the gloom and doom of cloudy thoughts:

My opinions are: (based on which I am operating presently)

·         The systemic problems facing US economy is not in India.

·         India has its own economics (supply demand, business cycles) etc. which are more favorable.

·         India would still have some correlation to the rest of the world but is better positioned economically.

·         Stock markets across Asia had got over-heated and lot of the overvaluation has been taken out by the present correction.

·         Euphoria caused by easy-liquidity is out.

·         Lots of mid caps and small caps (not Sensex which has already been discussed above) are downright cheap.

·         Many of these companies are going to continue doing very well operationally over the next 3-5 years.

·         The Indian companies have their own economics and we have to assess if each of our portfolio companies are favorably positioned or not?

·         The fundamental case with which I have invested in a company over the last few years, has not necessarily changed in the last 2 months (the stock price has :) )

·         And as Warren Buffett says the markets are not meant to explain anything: We look at the prices and when we see value we buy. If we see too much overvaluation we sell and for most part we do nothing.

·         When valuation goes down – risks decrease and margin of safety increases.

·         When valuations go down - the probability of outcomes shift more towards upside rather than downside over the long term.

·         As “Investors” we need to relook at our holdings and check if they are well positioned to thrive operationally for the next 3 years – If the fundamentals are intact (with the new realities) and the valuation are not demanding (read: cheap) – much of the risk is addressed & the probable outcome moves to upside rather than downside.

·         Now the 100 year flood – or a black swan event – can be a risk – but then we need new survival tactics.

·         The risk as Basantjee has explained is in checking if the earnings and earning potential of our companies is intact. If it is – and if the original analysis (Market, Management, Model, Competitive Advantage, Financials, Valuation etc.) is correct.   

·         IMO, the time is to - take the chill pill & see this as a learning experience. Be rational. Be cool. Chakde.



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"Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 3:32pm
Thanks Deepinsight. I would like everyone to use these times for thinking with their mind rather then the heart. Stock market bottoms are like a mirage in the desert. You can see it but never touch it.
 
While all of us would believe that we cannot find anything wrong the basic premise is not to buy just because things could get cheaper next week. My point is to buy and then check up prices after 6 months or a year.
 
An election is due by winter this year but maybe tby that time these opportunities might pass away. At least that is what I feel.
 
Most of the people out here are working so they have a steady flow of surplus to invest. With that kind of a mind set why should we not think and welcome lower prices.
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by deepinsight

Great discussion Basant jee & Tedies – it’s good to see some clarity amidst the gloom and doom of cloudy thoughts:

My opinions are: (based on which I am operating presently)

 ·         The risk as Basantjee has explained is in checking if the earnings and earning potential of our companies is intact. If it is – and if the original analysis (Market, Management, Model, Competitive Advantage, Financials, Valuation etc.) is correct.   

 
Yes Sir, this type of thinking helps.
 
Becoz sooner or later, prices will catch up with fundas.
 
Best wishes
 
 


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 4:02pm
22% of Indian markets are held by FII's. By selling in these times creates a double whammy situation for them with rupee depreciation. Promoters increasing their stake, MFs and Insurance companies seeing inflows are good signs for the market. Every other so-called experts are saying markets will consolidate till June 2008. I think after the Q4 results, we should see some money coming back to India.
 
Its very strange that all the mess is happening in US, but we are feeling the pain.


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"You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 4:50pm
Its very strange that all the mess is happening in US, but we are feeling the pain.
=================================================
 
I think mess in US is just a reason.....somewr tr is a big game goin on in the indian market.........has ne one heard on these lines ???


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happy & wise investing


Posted By: ThinkDifferent
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 5:14pm
Alright.................So did most of you load aggressively today or no? I invested almost 50% of my cash today. I got some YES at 183 and 178.

What about you?


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I am an Amateur in Stocks.


Posted By: Musketeer
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by chic_1978

Its very strange that all the mess is happening in US, but we are feeling the pain.
=================================================
 
I think mess in US is just a reason.....somewr tr is a big game goin on in the indian market.........has ne one heard on these lines ???
No, I haven't but what have you heard?


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Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by basant


The sensex should report an EPS of Rs 1050 for Fy 09 and some companies in the sensex have subsidiaries that are not yet contributing to the bottomline.

 



Not more than 2 minutes back a guy named 'Madhu' from Reliance Mutual Fund said exactly the same words on CNBC-TV18 to Udyan. The same show is repeated i think at 11:00 PM if anybody wants to see.

I don't see that this is as mere coincidence!
Basantji, so even MF managers are regularly visiting TED!


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Saab Moh Maya hai!


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 9:04pm
Fund managers are following BM's posts for sure. 

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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: vijayM
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 9:59pm
In taking stock program, madhu kela of Reliance MF exactly used the words that are written by Basantji about market forward P/E. Can't be a co-incidence.
 
vijay


Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 10:00pm
Basantji's EPS estimates was from the latest ENAM report !

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"You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by johnnybravo

Originally posted by basant


The sensex should report an EPS of Rs 1050 for Fy 09 and some companies in the sensex have subsidiaries that are not yet contributing to the bottomline.

 



Not more than 2 minutes back a guy named 'Madhu' from Reliance Mutual Fund said exactly the same words on CNBC-TV18 to Udyan. The same show is repeated i think at 11:00 PM if anybody wants to see.

I don't see that this is as mere coincidence!
Basantji, so even MF managers are regularly visiting TED!
 
I saw that program on TV now. Seems like Madhu Kela was on a picnic he seemed so relaxed and smiling and even quoted about that 2000 point embedded value of subsidiaries which we had discussed yesterday.
 
These guys are simply trying to time the market as one could make out
from the questions that Udayan so piquantly posted to him.Angry
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 11:40pm
Hehehehehehe ..Basantji ...is there anyway to find out if madhukela logs on to TED ...may be some psuedoname ..if we can get some clues  on what his nicknames are or what his colleagues call him we can search the same on TED also ...Big%20smile..who knows we may have many more ..sunil singhania, prashant jain, sandeep sabharwal,nilesh shah .....

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Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap


Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 12:40pm
Why waste time looking for them. We can tell who is visiting TED from the comments they make or actions they take.

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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 1:40am
Kotak has a (dated March 7) strategy report which states:
 
 

"The market offers favorable reward-risk balance now, in our view. We see the reward-risk balance as favorable in light of the market’s 15.5X FY2009E earnings multiple. Adjusted for ‘embedded’ value (22% of market capitalization in our estimate), the market is trading at 12.8X FY2009E earnings, which is about the midpoint of the market’s 10-15X historical trading range and low end of the range between March 2005-August 2007. We do see earnings risks in certain sectors such as cement, technology and telecom but we do not see meaningful risks to earnings in sectors such as automobiles, banking, consumers and industrials. We recommend investors buy stocks, which offer exposure to the core India themes of consumption and investment."



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"Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet


Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 2:01am
Its always the dumb people who try to act smarter. The smarter you are, lesser is the pressure you feel to act smarter.

Madhu Kela might have tried to act smart on the basis of borrowed thoughts or ideas -- but he doesn't know that his boss might also be at TED, again with an anonymous identity!


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Saab Moh Maya hai!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 9:00am
Interesting to see Kotak come out with a report based on the same argument. The bottomline isn't whether these guys are reading TED or not but the bottomline is that the bigger boys on the Street agree to our thesis at TED.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 9:36am
I guess, one should not include those embedded value in this kind of environment. And those SOPT valuations for most of the stocks when index at 20000, might not hold good now.
We could see stocks at these good valuations for quite some more time. I am just keeping some cash  to invest in case prices goes to mouth watering levels. I don't want to be left out when yesbank goes to 120.




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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: khokhadream
Date Posted: 07/Mar/2008 at 10:50am
Economist is considered to be the worlds best magazine and it has this
as front cover
 
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493 - http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493
 
If growth falters then we could see a long term bear market.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by khokhadream

Economist is considered to be the worlds best magazine and it has this as front cover
 
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493 - http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493
 
If growth falters then we could see a long term bear market.
 
Interesting reading.
 
My observations:
 
1. Reminds of a magazine cover indicator posted by BM http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=106&PN=35 - here on Posted: 17/Mar/2007 at 1:38pm. That doesn't mean we may have bottomed out so soon. There have been far excesses on the up so there will be on the downside as well.
2. There is always something to worry about.
3. The fuel indicator shows that we may need  http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=808&KW=pessimism&PID=40973#40973 - lot more fuel for a 'sustainable' rally.  
4. As individual unleveraged investors we shall welcome lower prices for portfolio building.
5. With bear phase lasting for a bit longish duration & equities becoming bad word...let's hope people return to their real work boosting country's GDP.
 
 
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: Musketeer
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by khokhadream

Economist is considered to be the worlds best magazine and it has this as front cover
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493 - http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493
If growth falters then we could see a long term bear market.
 
In the same magazine, another journalist presents a different perspective:
Decoupling does not mean that an American recession will have no impact on developing countries. That would be daft. The point is that their GDP-growth rates will slow by much less than in previous American downturns. Most enjoyed strong growth during the fourth quarter of last year, and some speeded up, even as America’s economy ground to a virtual halt and its non-oil imports fell.
China’s growth in exports to America slowed to only 5% (in dollar terms) in the year to January, but exports to Brazil, India and Russia were up by more than 60%, and those to oil exporters by 45%. Half of China’s exports now go to other emerging economies. Likewise, South Korea's exports to the United States tumbled by 20% in the year to February, but its total exports rose by 20%, thanks to trade with other developing nations.
 
A second supporting factor is that in many emerging markets domestic consumption and investment quickened during 2007. Their consumer spending rose almost three times as fast as in the developed world. Investment seems to be holding up even better: according to HSBC real capital spending rose by a staggering 17% in emerging economies last year, compared with only 1.2% in rich economies.
The four biggest emerging economies, which accounted for two-fifths of global GDP growth last year, are the least dependent on the United States: exports to America account for just 8% of China’s GDP, 4% of India’s, 3% of Brazil’s and 1% of Russia’s. Over 95% of China’s growth of 11.2% in the year to the fourth quarter came from domestic demand. China’s growth is widely expected to slow this year but to a still boisterous 9-10%.
Perhaps the best support for decoupling comes from America itself. Fourth-quarter profits of big companies, such as Coca-Cola, IBM and DuPont, were better than expected as strong sales growth in emerging markets offset a sharp slowdown at home. Bits of American business are rising above their own economy. With luck, the world economy can rise above America’s.
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808782 - http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808782
 
Originally posted by kulman

My observations:
1. That doesn't mean we may have bottomed out so soon. There have been far excesses on the up so there will be on the downside as well.
2. There is always something to worry about.
3. The fuel indicator shows that we may need  http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=808&KW=pessimism&PID=40973#40973 - lot more fuel for a 'sustainable' rally.  
4. As individual unleveraged investors we shall welcome lower prices for portfolio building.
5. With bear phase lasting for a bit longish duration & equities becoming bad word...let's hope people return to their real work boosting country's GDP.
Very well said Kulman ji. At the risk of being repetitive, trying to time the markets is futile.
Unleveraged individual investors having surplus cash shall welcome lower prices for portfolio building, not all.
 


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Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Musketeer

Unleveraged individual investors having surplus cash shall welcome lower prices for portfolio building, not all.
 
Thanks for those minor corrections having major implications.


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: italics
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 2:41pm
Basantji what's the connection between savings rate and GDP how are they proportional?
 
This is in response to your statement that a 10% savings rate would mean a GDP of approx 2.5%.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by kulman

Originally posted by khokhadream

Economist is considered to be the worlds best magazine and it has this as front cover
 
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493 - http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808493
 
If growth falters then we could see a long term bear market.
 
Interesting reading.
 
My observations:
 
1. Reminds of a magazine cover indicator posted by BM http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=106&PN=35 - here on Posted: 17/Mar/2007 at 1:38pm. That doesn't mean we may have bottomed out so soon. There have been far excesses on the up so there will be on the downside as well.
2. There is always something to worry about.
3. The fuel indicator shows that we may need  http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=808&KW=pessimism&PID=40973#40973 - lot more fuel for a 'sustainable' rally.  
4. As individual unleveraged investors we shall welcome lower prices for portfolio building.
5. With bear phase lasting for a bit longish duration & equities becoming bad word...let's hope people return to their real work boosting country's GDP.
 
 
 
 
 
That is actually the first thhought that came to my mind as well.Smile
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by italics

Basantji what's the connection between savings rate and GDP how are they proportional?
 
This is in response to your statement that a 10% savings rate would mean a GDP of approx 2.5%.
 
Try and see that link on ICOR on the first page of this thread. In an economy in equilibrium savings equals investments but generally there is always a slight difference between the two and ICOR is based on the investment rate.
 
In this case we assume from past history that India's ICOR is 4 times.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by deveshkayal

Its very strange that all the mess is happening in US, but we are feeling the pain.
 
How about a reality check that Market moves on the perception of fundamentals and NOT the fundamentals themselves.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: nitin_jagtap
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

 
How about a reality check that Market moves on the perception of fundamentals and NOT the fundamentals themselves.
 
Bubble from an Indian perspective ...the perception seems to be the reality on whats happening to the economy....where do you see the difference...which many cant obviously see? Thanks.


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Warm REgards
Nitin Jagtap


Posted By: Ajith
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 5:01pm
 Inflation figures have moved up since the article in The Economist.It may be difficult to cut interest rates in India but it must be done.The most worrisome aspect of the economy is the rising crude and agricultural goods prices  which is causing  the inflation.
    All this together with the recession in US means uncertainty for companies in many sectors.So  we can get the opportunity to buy  great stocks like HDFC Bank at reasonable PEs.
  What did Madhu Kela mean when he told Udayan that the fund was buying futures and not shares?Udayan classically muttered under his breath that one lives and one learns to express his surprise.


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Ajith


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by nitin_jagtap

Originally posted by BubbleVision

 
How about a reality check that Market moves on the perception of fundamentals and NOT the fundamentals themselves.
 
Bubble from an Indian perspective ...the perception seems to be the reality on whats happening to the economy....where do you see the difference...which many cant obviously see? Thanks.
 

Nitin ji.........Difference between perception and reality is mainly based on theory that strong GDP does NOT necessarily equate in strong bullish equity prices. This was exactly the case in China in 2002 - 2005, when Shanghai stock index kept hitting multiyear low for 1.5 years directly and became an international embarrasment for the communists.  

 

+ Stocks react more to liquidity and sentiment over a multi-month time frame. Fundamentals matters more in 5-years plus. See many TEDies are still holding because they see fundamental value, however the realization of that value depends only on liquidity. Strong bullish conditions can exist forever without any one "recognizing the value" hence a "Buy and Hold" approach, which is obiously wrong.
 
In markets we are there to make money and NOT theory. Making money needs to making mistakes and importantly admitting them at various times, thus keeping "Stop Losses" to protect against a fire which would devast the "Home".
 
I see people against going "Short" which means that they are bullish forever no matter what the conditions are. They are also unwilling to accept mistakes.  
 
:-)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 7:17pm
This China example has become a patent theme. But people are missing this argument which I had put on some other thread:
 
At that time Chinese multiples were above 40 times so a 11pc growth was inadequate to justify stock prices our multiples are nearing historical lows - that is if the earnings do not get de coupled from the Gdp
 
In simple terms increasing EPS was being offset by a PE contraction and the markets refused to oblige on the way up!
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 08/Mar/2008 at 7:25pm
Madhu Kela in the interview mentions the Rs 1050 EPS as non free float.
I am confused about the calculation of the Sensex EPS.

According to the - BSE website the current PE is 20.10
=> TTM EPS = Rs 795
=> Growth of 31.5% is required for FY09 EPS of Rs 1050
Tough... especially with GDP slowing down to 8.5%

Is it possible that the BSE page is reporting the wrong PE ?
- This article by Deepak Shenoy has a very interesting explanation and calculation of the Sensex PE. It calculates the TTM Q3 FY07 EPS as Rs 768.

I haven't tried calculating the current EPS according to the above methodology but a rough calculation with just 20% growth for FY09 would result in FY09 EPS to be Rs 1250.



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