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Holding Cash in a Bull market!

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Market Strategies
Forum Name: Fundamental
Forum Discription: Discuss the operations and finances of any of your companies.Make the other participants aware on the investment opportunities available in a stock on PE free cash flow etc
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1607
Printed Date: 20/Apr/2025 at 1:53pm


Topic: Holding Cash in a Bull market!
Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Subject: Holding Cash in a Bull market!
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 8:44pm
Dear Basant,
 
At the height of bull market, always there is a group where we all can easily invest. It is C group. That is Cash.
 
That is what i try to do. Not 100% successfully but meaningfully.
 
During the crash of Harshad's time, i had seen many investor selling their shares at 2 3 P/es. Becoz they had to raise cash.
 
They were trapped and there was no way to hold on.
 
JM
 
 


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.



Replies:
Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 8:47pm
Public participation in the stock market is highest at major peaks, and lowest at important bottoms. If we do reverse of this, we can profit easily.

 

JM



Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 8:47pm
It is really difficult to sit on cash. Better way could be to get into the cash equivalent stocks like HDFC (mortgage financier) and the foreign companies these rarely falls with the market!!!


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: prashantmohta
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 8:52pm
basantji-just heard that chatlal is sitting more than 50% cash.
chat lal ted aaja,sensex new high banayegaClap


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 8:56pm
Hello Basant,
 
I feel during sharp falls, there is no safe heaven Even in HDFc type companies. They also decline to a certain extent. 
 
Yes Basant, you are right, holding cash is very difficult. One of my friend had many years ago told me that holding cash is difficult becoz from our childhood we have been mostly buying things....
 
Most want cash to be put at use.
 
That tendency makes it difficult to hold cash.
 
Any guidance wud be appreciated.
 
JM
 
 
 


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 9:07pm
It cuts both ways if we can time it then nothing like it if we cannot then it makes the job tougher. Generally I am always fully invested and just tinker with the stocks. For example if I am holding HDFC bank I wil sell it at the fall and get into aggressive companies and reverse the process at the as the market recovers!
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by basant

Generally I am always fully invested and just tinker with the stocks.
 
BasantJi, have you ever SHORTSOLD any stock which you think was "Overvalued" or any index? Any Commodity? Confused
 
 


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by BubbleVision

Originally posted by basant

Generally I am always fully invested and just tinker with the stocks.
 
BasantJi, have you ever SHORTSOLD any stock which you think was "Overvalued" or any index? Any Commodity? Confused
 
 
 
No.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 10:40pm
IMO both aproaches are okay depending on you personality or style and comfort level. But one should not sell just bcoz of bull mkt. You can not sell just bcoz of little overvaluation, but if there is big over valuation it is good idea to sell. Also you need to look into demand/supply of shares, money, public psychology. Thought it is easier said than done.
 
On short selling, I do that occasionaly and it helps a lot. But don't short sell overvaluation unless it is way overvalued and in euphria. That also needs very good skill. Selling short is very safe with industry that gets broken from high growth or there is structural change. Notorious example is sub-prime. I track commodities and even if I had view that it will decline, I won't short it as it is in sustainable bull run. But there will sure be time to change the side after few years.
 
I see lot of members are alergic to RD but to his credit, it was very good call. His call was also good before crash last year. Only problem wa he changed his view little late.
 
Janakbhai,
What is your criteria for raising cash in bull mkt?


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by manishdave

IMO both aproaches are okay depending on you personality or style and comfort level. But one should not sell just bcoz of bull mkt. You can not sell just bcoz of little overvaluation, but if there is big over valuation it is good idea to sell. Also you need to look into demand/supply of shares, money, public psychology. Thought it is easier said than done.
 
On short selling, I do that occasionaly and it helps a lot. But don't short sell overvaluation unless it is way overvalued and in euphria. That also needs very good skill. Selling short is very safe with industry that gets broken from high growth or there is structural change. Notorious example is sub-prime. I track commodities and even if I had view that it will decline, I won't short it as it is in sustainable bull run. But there will sure be time to change the side after few years.
 
I see lot of members are alergic to RD but to his credit, it was very good call. His call was also good before crash last year. Only problem wa he changed his view little late.
 
Janakbhai,
What is your criteria for raising cash in bull mkt?
 
Hi Manish,
 
I have been holding to lots of cash during last few months. All of us were making money very fast. And that was the reason i sold most of my stocks.
 
Dear TED  Friends,
 
This is to put on record that Manish Dave's elder brother has been a close friend of mine and we have together made many many factory visits and management meets in past before they shifted to the US. I wud request Manish to inform - convince Jagdeep Dave to join this forum for the benefit of all of us.
 
Manish, Pl pass on this message to Jagdeepbhai.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 11:43pm
Janakbhai,
 
He knows abt this forum but he is active in different forum so I doubt he will leave that. As long as I know, he wont participate in two places simultaneously. But anyway, I will pass on you message to him.
 
Also we share ALL ideas, so unless there is difference of opinions(we don't have much but we do have) there won't be much extra. And all our major plays are more or less same except he rarely goes on short side.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 9:50am
 I see lot of members are alergic to RD but to his credit, it was very good call. His call was also good before crash last year. Only problem wa he changed his view little late
 
I personally learnt a lot from RD during my rediff chatting days and still accept that he was the one who introduced me to Peter Lynch, Buffett etc but in recent times he has been an inverted Abhimanyu. He knows when to exit but that process gets completed only when he re-enters back again before the recovery. and it is that inability in his decision making of trying to get back again which frustates a lot of people.
 
He had made some big calls in the bull market especially the ones in liquor but on the other side he has been arrogant towards flexibility and has refused to look at his picks like McMillan, Timber etc.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 18/Feb/2008 at 10:45am
Everybody makes good calls and bad calls. McMillan was his big call that didn't work. MTimber I don't think was big call. I am not follower of RD and not follower of anybody for that matter, but IMO he does good job. Unlike others who just says buy/hold etc, he at least puts logic, educates chatters and then it is upto an individual to learn and take decisions.
 
If it is true that he was 50% in cash just bfore crash, credit goes to him. Even if he doesn't turn bullish, IMO he must be bargain hunting in crash and would not hold all cash as ultimately he is investor.


Posted By: India_Bull
Date Posted: 19/Feb/2008 at 12:19pm
It is simply irrestible to hold cash in the bull market..

In bull market-Buy high and sell higher.
In bear market- Sell Low and buy lower

It is upto individuals how  use cash in both hypothetical situations..


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India_Bull forever Bull !
www.kapilcomedynights.com


Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 19/Feb/2008 at 2:30pm
Sitting on cash is a very difficult part of the investing process, but it is,
in  my opinion, as important as buying and selling decisions.
There are times when it is prudent to sit on cash for a while and just DO NOTHING - it is very, very difficult - but nevertheless, it needs to be done.
I have tried this a few times earlier and found that it does help, if one has
the patience to wait till a proper trend emerges.

Unfortunately, in the last 3-4 years, we have never really had any significant time-bound correction which has necessitated this type of a
position as most crashes have rebounded very quickly.

Like Basant, i also learnt pretty much what i know about investing from RD chats, and for that he will always remain my Guru(apart from the fact that only multibaggers till date have been his ideas, so another reason to be grateful to him). In the last few years, i have not used many of his recommendations, but still i participate in the chats as i think there is something i learn each week about investing, even if its not anything tehcnical or about a new idea, it could be something about how other
investors think, etc(in fact, i find the questions side of the chat window even more interesting coz we get to find out what ideas are being looked at). And regarding the other point that Basant made about arrogance, i dont think we can put it down to arrogance, i feel it is his conviction.
After all, he keeps talking about patience and conviction, so obviously he
may go with his views and remain convinced in a story for a little longer than needed, but that is how it works out, for all of us. He is entitled to
hold that conviction in his ideas, as long as he deems necessary.

After all, no matter how strong an idea you have, there will always be someone who dosent agree with it, and if they try to convince you about it, and you dont change your view on it, they could call you as arrogant.



Originally posted by manishdave

Everybody makes good calls and bad calls. McMillan was his big call that didn't work. MTimber I don't think was big call. I am not follower of RD and not follower of anybody for that matter, but IMO he does good job. Unlike others who just says buy/hold etc, he at least puts logic, educates chatters and then it is upto an individual to learn and take decisions.
 
If it is true that he was 50% in cash just bfore crash, credit goes to him. Even if he doesn't turn bullish, IMO he must be bargain hunting in crash and would not hold all cash as ultimately he is investor.


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The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience.
The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience!


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 19/Feb/2008 at 5:49am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdnwdRzkePM">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdnwdRzkePM -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdnwdRzkePM - TheEquityDesk: Investing in a Bear Market
07:06

TEDdies may discuss the points raised in the video whenever they are free! NJoy!


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 14/May/2008 at 8:24pm
[QUOTE=investor]Sitting on cash is a very difficult part of the investing process, but it is,
in  my opinion, as important as buying and selling decisions.
There are times when it is prudent to sit on cash for a while and just DO NOTHING - it is very, very difficult - but nevertheless, it needs to be done.
I./QUOTE]
 
Yes u r right about sitting on cash. But looked differently value of cash goes up when stocks decline. Meanwhile we can do our homework and identify bargains.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 14/May/2008 at 8:31pm
Excellent thought about value of cash being inversely proportional to stock price.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: chic_1978
Date Posted: 15/May/2008 at 2:13pm
Basant & JM
 
How abt deploying cash in Goldbees in the current market.....Isnt it less volatile & secured..


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happy & wise investing


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 15/May/2008 at 2:18pm

There are several stocks that will outperform Gold. Normally Gold should be bought on leverage because a small movement will create larger gains.



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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 15/May/2008 at 2:30pm
Smile
Originally posted by basant

There are several stocks that will outperform Gold. Normally Gold should be bought on leverage because a small movement will create larger gains.

 
or larger big losses!Smile
 
I have known few people (even 1 TED member) going broke due to leverage. Facts remain reality. Leverage is a double edged sword. Very risky.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 15/May/2008 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by chic_1978

Basant & JM
 
How abt deploying cash in Goldbees in the current market.....Isnt it less volatile & secured..
 
 
Hi Chirag,
 
Whatever limited knowledge i have, it is all about stocks. I do not know of anything else in the investment world.
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: snehaldani
Date Posted: 23/May/2008 at 1:55pm
Focus. Learn.  Focus.Learn. Focus.Learn. ..................
 
This is what JM knows when he is not acting a genrous host or talking to a friend.


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Snehal P.Dani


Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 04/Sep/2008 at 2:05am

Where Many Investors Trip Up

Whether you realize it or not, many investors often commit mistakes that regularly go unnoticed. Or worse, the mistake is made under the false assumption that the activity is actually correct. Such common traps include:

1. Investing for capital appreciation when instead you should be investing for capital preservation. Investing in this manner is like crossing the street after only looking straight ahead. The destination might be clear, but without looking left and right, the consequences can be perilous.

2. Interpreting market volatility as a destroyer of opportunity when it is instead a creator of opportunity. If your approach is sound then volatility allows you to buy that which was cheap yesterday cheaper today.

And most important of all: spending time thinking about when to sell a security when all your time should be spent learning when to buy a security. This is a mistake that many investors commit without ever realizing it.

Many people believe that knowing when to buy is much simpler and easier to do than when to sell. However, the real reward in investing comes from making smart buying decisions. Selling is simply the activity that rewards your disciplined buying approach. Far too many investors exaggerate the selling process. In doing this, they subconsciously approach the investment process backwards. In my most recent letter to partners, I discussed the fallacy in "learning" when to sell an asset:


"...you only need to do a few things right to be a successful investor. Knowing when to sell a security is not one of them. Money is made when the asset is bought not when it's sold. Learning when to sell is a task that far too many investors spend far too much time attempting to perfect. In his 50+ years as an investor, Warren Buffett has realized losses on an absurdly low percentage of his investments (less than 5%). Buffett spends little time worrying about when he should sell his investments and instead on focuses on buying assets cheaply. This buying process should be at the center of an investor's focus. You can never go broke by taking profits. If you maintain a disciplined approach to the price you pay for an asset, the selling process will take care of itself. Echoing Shelby Davis, 'you just don't know it at the time.'"

Your profits (or losses) are made the minute you buy an asset. You just won't "see" it until you sell. If you concentrate your efforts on buying businesses selling at a discount to intrinsic value, the odds are favorable that when you need your money, you will sell at a higher price. Understand of course that intrinsic value can be impaired if the fundamentals of the business deteriorate. This is possible with any investment, but much less likely with superior businesses with successful long-term operating performance.

The common mistake is made when investors confuse buying a business and buying a stock. When buying something cheap, investors often take that to mean buying the stock at the bottom. This is flawed thinking. You can still make money even if you buy at top--as long as the intrinsic value is substantially higher.

Also, investors assume that if they sell at a profit only to see the share price advance further, then they made a mistake by selling too soon. But that too reflects the wrong perspective. First of all, anytime you sell an investment at a gain, you have succeeded. I learned at an early age that you will not lose money by selling something for more than you paid for it. So, if that's the name of the game, then mastering the buy side is how you win the game. Warren Buffett once remarked that "investing is simple, but not easy." It's simple in that all you need to do is find a handful of great businesses selling at reasonable prices and let time do its thing.

Yet investing is not easy because most investors have a hard time being patient. Mohnish Pabrai once told me that two things occur to him after he makes an investment: When he buys, the stock usually dives, and after he sells, the stock rockets. Yet in the almost nine years that he's been running the Pabrai Investment Funds, he's boasting an annualized return above 20% -- after fees.

 
Full article at http://www.gurufocus.com/news.php?id=26922 - GuruFocus


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The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it


Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 2:15pm
So how many of you are left with cash to cash on the Mega Sale of stocks now ?Smile

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To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks .
Benjamin Graham.


Posted By: bassein
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by valueman

So how many of you are left with cash to cash on the Mega Sale of stocks now ?Smile


That's a dangerous question to ask! Visitors may turn up at the door!

As Vivek suggested, convert duds to opportunities if you're short of cash.


Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 3:33pm
I have some cash.
Waiting for my next salary, which is some three weeks off.
Actually, prices are going down so much that I've actually started saving some money.
Never thought about saving anything earlier.

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"History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 3:46pm
Don't you carry credit cards?


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kumardiwesh
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 4:19pm
I don't have a credit card.
Aajkal banks bahut cautious ho gaye hain.
A friend who works with Kotak Securities and has a seven-figure salary was rejected a credit card by Citibank.

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"History does not tell you the probability of future financial things happening" - Warren Buffett


Posted By: snehaldani
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 8:25pm
Interesting to note that Kotak Securities employee wanted a citibank card while his own bank has launched an innovative credit card.
 
Was it that he wanted anonymity from his employer about his spending habits?.


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Snehal P.Dani


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 10:13pm
I have small cash. But there you go. I am worried about job loss. If i get 3-6 months time frame, will able to generate some more cash to invest.



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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: Musketeer
Date Posted: 08/Oct/2008 at 10:21pm

Paramount is your composure and ability to ignore whats happening in the markets when it gets too extreme. Construct a portfolio that you shouldn't need to liquidate atleast for the next 3 years. Be mentally prepared to face a time when your portfolio may be down and you want to buy more but cannot. Never lose control of your cash flows and you'll be fine after 3-4 years. If this is once in a century event, I hope we come out of it and use what we learn from it.



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Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: kamleshpatel
Date Posted: 27/Oct/2008 at 6:30pm
ya true...
It looks me that we are at extream end of ever swinging pendulam..
Anytime turnaround can happen...
 
learning stock market is like learning swimming..you dive, and you learn... but it takes fees.. I have paid mine..


Posted By: brijwanth
Date Posted: 27/Oct/2008 at 9:54pm
Dear Investor

During this time of turbulence in the markets, I must congratulate you for taking the wise decision to remain patient. At this time I also wanted to share with you some facts from the history of the markets in India.

It is important for all investors who invest or tend to invest in equities to take a trip down memory lane, particulary during times when the investor feels tired and let down by the market. We need to be aware that this kind of despair is not new in the market but public memory being short, one tends to forget the days of despair.

Let me take some of your precious time to draw your attention to the table below depicting the peaks and bottoms of the Sensex in the recent past. Only the recent past is given here because it is relatively easier to connect to it.


SENSEX HIGH DATE SENSEX LOW DATE
4546 02.04.1992 1980 27.04.1993
4643 12.09.1994 2713 04.12.1996
6150 14.02.2000 2156 03.10.2001
6249 09.01.2004 4227 17.05.2004
12671 11.05.2006 8799 14.06.2006
14723 09.02.2007 12316 16.03.2007
21206 10.01.2008 8701 24.10.2008

I hope that you remember the historic bull phase of early 1990s charging to 4546 points from below 1000 points during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, in April 1992. The most interesting development of this period was the amazing growth of investor population in the country and stock investing becoming fashionable for the first time, with new Stock Exchanges mushrooming in every nook and corner of the country. When the hero (or villain?) of the great bull market, Harshad Mehta was caught by the law enforcing agencies, the market collapsed like a pack of cards crushing millions of new investors who had entered the market during the peak time, leaving them in utter agony. The pain was much more than what we are seeing these days. The market mood was incredibly low and many investors along with doomsayers predicted the end of the market and the end of an asset class called equities. As the table shows, in a short span of one year from April 1992 to April 1993, investors found their wealth coming down by more than 55%. Many fortune seekers who borrowed and invested and many others who had invested their life time savings for the marriage of children to retirement life, saw their wealth disappearing in one year’s time. The painful part was that though the index came down by only 55%, many of the shares manipulated by operators came down to zero value. This tragedy occurred at a time when market regulations were weak and SEBI had no effective punitive power.

At some point of time you must have felt disappointed and angry at the way the market has been moving. Now look at the table again. In a matter of seventeen months the very same market bounced back to touch 4643 points. Think of all those who sold in disappointment during April 1993 when the index was at 1980 points! The market went up by more than 100 percent in 17 months! Just have a look at the market peaks alone. The next peak was at 6150 (in 3 years 2 months), the next at 6249 (in 2 years 3 months), then at 12671 (in 2 years), then at 14723 (in 8 months) and then at 21206 points (in 10 months). My intention is not to predict when and to where the Sensex will bounce back in the days to come, but to point out that all those who courageously got into the market in each of the troughs and waited patiently made incredible wealth as the market always peaked above the previous peak.

Now what happened to those who invested during the peak time in each of the market peaks – you know many new investors tend to start investing at the peak – they saw their wealth going down by 40 to 60 percent! Compare this to the wealth of all those who got into the market when the market touched bottom every time! Indeed, it requires courage to invest when every other investor leaves the market.

In this backdrop we must also analyse what is happening in the market that is pulling the Sensex down to 8700 points. Many foreign institutions and hedge funds have become bankrupt in their home countries forcing them to sell Indian assets at throwaway prices pulling our market down. One serious difference is that this time we have a global magnitude to this crash in relation to liquidity.

The one who can invest now, particularly in companies which are sitting with lots of cash in their balance sheet will make extraordinary returns when the dust settles down.

I felt that it is my duty to share with you some facts to enable you to look from a better perspective at the current events. Of course it is difficult to predict market tops and bottoms, but I wish to assure you that this is not the end of equity markets, and it will never be.

Thanking you and with all good wishes for a Happy Diwali,
Yours sincerely,



C J George


Posted By: snehaldani
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2008 at 2:33pm
Thank You Mr. George for putting the things in right perspective which is the need of the hour.

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Snehal P.Dani


Posted By: deepinsight
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2008 at 2:51pm
It would be intresting to start a new thread - Holding part ownership "equities" in a bear market versus Holding Cash in a Bull Market. It seems lot of us have abondened our original thesis and intent.

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"Investing is simple, but not easy." - Warren Buffet


Posted By: leo2007
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2008 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by deepinsight

It would be intresting to start a new thread - Holding part ownership "equities" in a bear market versus Holding Cash in a Bull Market. It seems lot of us have abondened our original thesis and intent.
 
What is ' part ownership equities ' ?


Posted By: India_Bull
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2008 at 7:50pm
Holding cash or putting cash in FD's at this moment is denying oneself opportunity of getting 40-50 % returns over a period of one year.

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India_Bull forever Bull !
www.kapilcomedynights.com


Posted By: sumukh
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2008 at 12:36pm
Based on the data given by Mr. George. I applied some mathematics and came to following conclusion.

Please note that nobody can predict anything in stock market. This is one attempt to estimate based on previous data.

Sensex       High Date   Sensex           Low Date

21630        15.12.2009    12545        15.10.2010




Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 29/Oct/2008 at 10:32am
State banks to get deposit largesse from govt firms
Sudheer Pal Singh & Rakteem Katakey / New Delhi October 30, 2008, 0:59 IST

State-owned commercial banks are expected to garner at least Rs 20,000 crore of additional bulk-deposits from public sector enterprises following an advisory from the finance ministry that government-owned companies should park their surplus cash with state-controlled banks.


 

These public sector enterprises hold between 10 and 40 per cent of their cash with private banks. This development comes at a time when a few private sector banks are not accepting bulk deposits which typically attract high interest.

The 45 listed public sector firms alone have cash and bank deposits of Rs 1,13,500 crore as of March 2008, according to Capitaline data. This excludes unlisted entities like state-owned telecom major BSNL Ltd, Coal India Ltd and Oil India Ltd.

The amount of Rs 20,000 crore was arrived after talking to six companies that collectively account for nearly 75 per cent of total deposits of listed state-owned firms and are planning to move between 10 per cent and 40 per cent of their desposits to public sector banks.

At present, officials of state-run companies say private banks offer interest that is two percentage points higher than the public sector banks offer. Thus, a shift of Rs 20,000 crore away from private banks would mean that the state-run companies will lose at least Rs 400 crore on an annualised basis.

Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC), India’s largest oil producer and the highest profit-making public sector company, has decided to transfer its entire Rs 25,000 crore of deposits to State Bank of India, ONGC’s largest banker.

“Our board has decided that the entire deposits will now be with State Bank,” confirmed a senior ONGC official.

The oil producer has around 15 per cent of its deposits in private sector banks.

“Deposits with the private banks have come down in the last month,” admitted a SAIL official, but did not specify how much. SAIL banks mainly with Bangalore-headquartered Canara Bank. The steel maker, with the third-largest cash balance among the listed state-run firms, had around 15 per cent of its deposits with private sector banks at the end of September 2008.
 

CASH-RICH PUBLIC SECTOR COMPANIES
Cash and bank balance*           Rs Crores
ONGC 25055.85
NTPC 15360.50
SAIL 13933.08
BHEL 8386.02
NMDC 7198.80
MMTC 6022.29
Neyveli Lignite 4749.56
GAIL 4632.06
National Aluminium 3516.46
MTNL 3383.32
Bharat Electronics 2461.55
Shipping Corp 2091.20
Power Grid Corpor 1865.59
CASH-RICH PUBLIC SECTOR COMPANIES
Cash and bank balance            Rs Crores
IDFC 1808.07
BPCL 1588.92
Container Corp 1522.57
Engineers India 1270.29
Rural Electrifications
Corpor
1255.69
Indian Oil Corp 1060.22
Ircon International 940.28
HPCL 793.39
Power Finance 694.67
STC India 550.70
Hindustan Copper 528.84
BEML 521.10
(figures in Rs crore)* Latest             Source: Capitaline

The finance ministry advisory came a month ago. The ministry had also said the companies cannot call for competitive bidding on interest rates and will have to make deposits with the bank with which they have had prior banking experience.

A couple of months ago ONGC called for interest rate quotations on Rs 1,000 crore it wanted to deposit. Indian Oil Corporation, which is going through a liquidity crisis, quoted more than banks and took the deposits by agreeing to pay interest at over 11 per cent.

The move by the finance ministry comes at a time when the country’s banking system is facing a liquidity crisis with credit to firms drying up. The government has been trying to raise cash with banks which will help them lend to companies.

“With public sector companies depositing primarily with state-owned banks the government will get a freer hand in asking the banks to lend. But this affects the interest earnings of the public sector companies,” said a Mumbai-based analyst.

A senior official of Powergrid Corporation of India Ltd (PGCIL), India’s largest power transmission utility, agreed that the finance ministry circular will result in two percentage points drop in interest earned on deposits. At present, PGCIL has 60 per cent of its cash surplus with public sector banks and most of their deposits have a shorter tenure of 30-90 days.

However Coal India Ltd said they already comply with finance ministry directive and plan not to shift the deposits, said Partha S Bhattacharyya, chairman of Coal India.

Coal India, which is not yet listed in stock exchanges, along with subsidiaries have a total deposits of Rs 17,000 crore, with three-fourth deposited with public sector banks. Internally, the company has put a cap of 25 per cent on deposits with private banks.


Source : Business Standard.com



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Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful.


Posted By: kanagala
Date Posted: 30/Oct/2008 at 12:11pm
Is IDFC considered as a public sector holding? Then, why did it command those crazy valuations few months back.

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While one person hesitates because he feels inferior, the other is busy making mistakes and becoming superior.


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 30/Oct/2008 at 1:02pm

  Corporate Information
Shareholding Pattern

Company Name INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT FINANCE COMPANY LIMITED
NSE Symbol http://nseindia.com/marketinfo/equities/cmquote.jsp?key=IDFCEQN&symbol=IDFC&flag=0 - IDFC
Quarter Ended on 30-SEP-2008

Promoters  |  http://nseindia.com/marketinfo/companyinfo/eod/Shareholding/shareholding_public1.jsp?nds_id=10704&symbol=IDFC&count_string=0%7C17%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C1%7C1%7C&as_on_dt=30-SEP-2008 - Public > 1%  |  Locked-in  |  Depository Receipts  |  Depository Receipts 1%

Statement showing Shareholding Pattern


Sr. No Category of shareholder Number of shareholders Total number of shares Number of shares held in de materialized form % of shares (A+B) % of shares (A+B+C)
(A) Shareholding of Promoter and Promoter Group
(1) Indian
(a) Individuals/ Hindu Undivided Family 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(b) Central Government/ State Government(s) 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(c) Bodies Corporate 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(d) Financial Institutions/ Banks 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(e) Any Other (specify)


0 0 0 0 0

Sub-Total (A)(1) 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(2) Foreign
(a) Individuals (Non- Resident Individuals/ Foreign Individuals) 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(b) Bodies Corporate 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(c) Institutions 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(d) Any Other (specify)


0 0 0 0 0

Sub-Total (A)(2) 0 0 0 0.00 0.00

Total Shareholding of Promoter and Promoter Group (A)= (A)(1)+(A)(2) 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(B) Public shareholding
(1) Institutions
(a) Mutual Funds/ UTI 126 109532259 109532259 8.46 8.46
(b) Financial Institutions/ Banks 44 90517051 90517051 6.99 6.99
(c) Central Government/ State Government(s) 1 261400000 261400000 20.18 20.18
(d) Venture Capital Funds 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(e) Insurance Companies 17 99978821 99978821 7.72 7.72
(f) Foreign Institutional Investors 226 403834044 403834044 31.18 31.18
(g) Foreign Venture Capital Investors 0 0 0 0.00 0.00
(h) Any Other (specify)

Foreign Financial Institutions ( Throu' FDI) 3 113400000 113400000 8.76 8.76

Sub-Total (B)(1) 417 1078662175 1078662175 83.29 83.29
(2) Non-institutions
(a) Bodies Corporate 3441 64111457 64110457 4.95 4.95
(b) Individuals
(i) Individual shareholders holding nominal share capital up to Rs. 1 lakh 354912 108700696 108671465 8.39 8.39
(ii) Individual shareholders holding nominal share capital in excess of Rs. 1 lakh 1013 43270144 43270144 3.34 3.34
(c) Any Other (specify)

Trusts 46 472529 472529 0.04 0.04

Sub-Total(B)(2) 359412 216554826 216524595 16.72 16.72

Total Public Shareholding (B)= (B)(1)+(B)(2) 359829 1295217001 1295186770 100.01 100.01

TOTAL(A)+(B) 359829 1295217001 1295186770 100.00 100.00
(C) Shares held by Custodians and against which Depository Receipts have been issued 0 0 0
0.00

GRAND TOTAL (A)+(B)+(C) 359829 1295217001 1295186770
100.00

Promoters  |  http://nseindia.com/marketinfo/companyinfo/eod/Shareholding/shareholding_public1.jsp?nds_id=10704&symbol=IDFC&count_string=0%7C17%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C1%7C1%7C&as_on_dt=30-SEP-2008 - Public > 1%  |  Locked-in  |  Depository Receipts  |  Depository Receipts 1%



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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 30/Oct/2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by kanagala

Is IDFC considered as a public sector holding? Then, why did it command those crazy valuations few months back.
 
IDFC can not qualify as pure PSU. GOI is holding only 20%. Though company was initiated by GOI & understand that run by professional management without any interference from GOI.


Posted By: tarkeshwar
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2008 at 3:39pm
This is an interesting and rather important thread.

I have a qus. How is the experience of being 100% invested in the market been? Are folks able to maneuver successfully from defensive stocks (like HDFC) to aggressive companies, so as to exploit unmistakable "buy when others are fearful" opportunity now?
If one's recurring income is much less than his stock portfolio value, isn't it hard to benefit much from opportunity like this?
My learning now is that it makes more sense to accumulate cash during bull runs, "only" to invest when bad sentiments prevail for a stock. "only" is the operative word and probably the most important difference between legendary investors like Buffett and us mortal souls
   


Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2008 at 9:11am


Can anyone point out where we can get the Graph of the sensex / nifty(i.e when it started )  from 1990s up to date ?


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To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks .
Benjamin Graham.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2008 at 9:33am
Originally posted by tarkeshwar

This is an interesting and rather important thread.

I have a qus. How is the experience of being 100% invested in the market been? Are folks able to maneuver successfully from defensive stocks (like HDFC) to aggressive companies, so as to exploit unmistakable "buy when others are fearful" opportunity now?
If one's recurring income is much less than his stock portfolio value, isn't it hard to benefit much from opportunity like this?    
 
1) Experience has been frightening but just short of triggering a distress sale.
 
2) I have tried going into companies that have predictable earnings growth and that includes HDFC bank
 
3) Yes, you cannot put in meaningful money in but that is something one will have to take since had he held some cash since 2003 he wouldn't have made as much as in stocks even after this carnage.
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2008 at 9:49am
Originally posted by valueman



Can anyone point out where we can get the Graph of the sensex / nifty(i.e when it started )  from 1990s up to date ?


You should try the respective BSE / NSE sites.

In NSE, go to charting and try your luck.

You should also be able to download the data as a .xls or .csv file which you can then import into your favourite spreadsheet / charting programme.


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Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2008 at 10:35am
Thanks Hitesh

I went to yahoo.co.in and in the Finance section found a graph for BSE from 1998 and for NSE from 2003 onwards .

Do you have any idea where we can get the Chart of Indian Gold ETFs?
I am searching for the same .




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To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks .
Benjamin Graham.


Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 02/Nov/2008 at 11:02am
Originally posted by tarkeshwar

This is an interesting and rather important thread.

I have a qus. How is the experience of being 100% invested in the market been? Are folks able to maneuver successfully from defensive stocks (like HDFC) to aggressive companies, so as to exploit unmistakable "buy when others are fearful" opportunity now?
If one's recurring income is much less than his stock portfolio value, isn't it hard to benefit much from opportunity like this?
My learning now is that it makes more sense to accumulate cash during bull runs, "only" to invest when bad sentiments prevail for a stock. "only" is the operative word and probably the most important difference between legendary investors like Buffett and us mortal souls
   


The first time I invested in Equities it was in 2003 and I had a major portfolio of mine in the same and at that time I was a little bit nervous as that was my first time and many of my friends and relatives who had burnt their fingers in the dot com crash were horrified to see a "novice" like me investing a major portion of our cash in Equities and I was lucky that I  invested in the right time and inspite of the current carnage my portfolio is quite positive and the dividend yield is itself is more than what Bank gives me as interest and hence I have a downside protection .

Now is the second phase of my investment and this is my first bear phase and the experience is new for me .I am staying in 50% cash and 50% invested ( started investing at 12,000 levels ) .The current investments that I have made are for a min period of 5 years and treat it as a FD for 5 years .In the meanwhile I did make an investment in 2 Closed Ended Mutual Funds in Jan 2008 .They have a lock in period of 3 years .

Since I have zero debts , have source for regular income , having 50% cash and also with my "overall portfolio" quite positive I am not having much fear though I dread to think what would happen if the sensex goes to 7000 levels .

I evaluate my Investment performance  not based on what is the index level but how much better I have made compared to the same amount invested in a bank FD ( after deducting tax ) for a similar period .
And If I get the same result or less than the Bank returns then I am a looser and unfit to manage my finance .
If I get 5% more  results than bank FD then I am an OK Investor .(i.e 15% and above )
If I get 10% more  results than Bank  FD then I am a Good Investor .(i.e 20% and above )
If I get 15% more  results then Bank FD  then I am a Very Good Investor .( i.e 25% and above )
If I get 20% more  results then Bank FD  then I am an Excellent Investor  .( i.e 30% and above )
Based on my performance in the last 5 years I can say that currently even after this Carnage I an right now a Good Investor .I was an Excellent Investor in Jan 2008 Wink
I will have to see how I am by 2013 i.e I have a 5 year time frame for my evaluation .



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To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks .
Benjamin Graham.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by investor

Yes, some points from that book and other cases in Lynch's book where
he mentioned about losing profits(the same point which Basant has also
mentioned). But i would be lying if i said that my decision was based on those readings.  Mainly it was just a simple case of protecting profits, thats all.

Like Basantji, i am a firm believer in concentrated portfolio, and had just 5 stocks, with 50% in UB holdings and 20% in Mcdowell(now United Spirits). And its obvious all these were RD's picks 3 years ago, and so when he started exiting in Jan, i held on. But 3 months and 50% loss of profits later, i was getting nervous about losing out on all the hard work of last 3.5 years(well hard work may be a misnomer in the investing world, but sitting patiently on growing profits, not knowing when to exit is very difficult, as you also must be aware) so decided to get out.
And again like Basantji, i dont believe in the concept of partial profit booking, so exited completely.

My biggest learnings for me from this was this:
1. An example which Basant wrote many eons ago on TED:
    For a five bagger from Rs. 100, you need a 400% increase, but from  500, just a 80% fall will bring it back to 100!!

   I learnt this lesson the hard way! .Cry

2. There is no point getting excited or happy about seeing the rise in
    the "unrealized gains" in the portfolio tracker. Only when you actually
    sell, it is REAL!

3. There is only one thing tougher than sitting on profits, and that is
    sitting on cash! 

Originally posted by kulman


Very well said.

Mr. Investor, kudos to you for taking this decision. Not many people have been successful in sitting on cash. What made you take this step? Somewhere else you had mentioned that a book Wisdom of crowd helped you in deciding. Any other observations?




Thanks  for the candid reply, Mr. Investor






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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: brijwanth
Date Posted: 14/Jul/2010 at 7:48am
That post by me on 27th october 2009 seems to have given an good effect at that time

It was a letter from Geojit Head.

Now after a gap of 2 years I'm posting back though the market has not climbed it's peak of 21,000. I'm feeling the same as this thread i.e. Holding cash in Bull Market. This is no Bull market and the analysts seem fearful after 2008 beating. so they are " cautiously positive " to avoid risking their careers Wacko.


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Past will not be repeated in future but peaks and troughs do revert to mean, period and order of those peaks, troughs and mean days is the one i.e. not predictable- riser3 valuations



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