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Buffett never bets with sucker odds!

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Market Strategies
Forum Name: Buffet, Lynch and other legends - Investing Strategies
Forum Discription: DIscuss about the strategies followed by the great investors. Share an idea which would have impressed the masters. Try and bring their International experience into the Indian Markets.
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1390
Printed Date: 21/Apr/2025 at 1:39pm


Topic: Buffett never bets with sucker odds!
Posted By: kulman
Subject: Buffett never bets with sucker odds!
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 9:19am

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/105e4dc8-f9bd-11db-9b6b-000b5df10621.html - Buffett never makes a bet with sucker odds

By Mark Sellers

Published: May 4 2007 17:08

Every couple of years I pull out Buffett’s old partnership letters, written to his investors between 1957 and 1970, and re-read them. In my opinion, these letters are the greatest “book” ever written on how to manage an investment partnership.

The Buffett Partnership Limited was formed in 1956 with $100,000 in capital. Buffett did not charge an annual management fee but he took 25 per cent of the profits above a 6 per cent “hurdle” rate. The partnership compounded money at 31 per cent annually between 1957 and 1969, when Buffett disbanded the partnership and sent the money back to investors, versus 9.1 per cent annually for the Dow. During this period the fund outperformed the Dow every year and never lost money, in spite of four losing years for the Dow. Buffett liquidated the partnership in 1969 and 1970 and sent his investors their money back. 

Back then, Buffett classified his investments into three categories: generals, workouts and controls.

Generals were defined as out-of-favour stocks with good management teams and a low valuation relative to their intrinsic value. This is the type of investment Buffett is best known for today, and it comprised the largest portion of his portfolio back then.

Workouts were defined as “securities with a finite timetable” – essentially turnround plays or arbitrage situations with a defined catalyst. This was Buffett’s second most common type of investment, although today he shuns turnrounds and ignores arbitrage situations.

Controls were stocks that did nothing for such a long time after Buffett began buying that he was able to accumulate a significant percentage of the stock, thereby garnering some control over the company’s direction. Berkshire Hathaway, which he began buying in 1962, was one of these. I don’t think Buffett ever engages in activism today, but he made a lot of money doing it then.

There are other notable differences between Buffett’s strategy then and what he does now.

Most of the stocks held by BPL were obscure micro-caps such as Sandborn Map, Dempster Mill Manufacturing and Texas National Petroleum. Today, because of the size of his investment pool, Buffett can consider only investments in large companies. This hinders his performance (although he still does amazingly well, given the size of his portfolio).

Although Buffett has always been known for taking large positions, not many people are aware that in 1959 and 1960 he had about 35 per cent of his fund’s portfolio in one stock, Sandborn Map. It turned out to be a very profitable investment for the partnership.

There may have been others of this magnitude; Buffett told his investors in one letter that he would invest up to 40 per cent of the partnership’s capital on a single idea if the risk/reward ratio was highly favourable.

And even early on he realised that buying a stock is the same as buying into a partnership with the management team, so you had better be careful who you get into bed with. This philosophy has not changed in 50 years.

Most important, Buffett has never wavered on one overriding principle: he has never made a bet unless he was sure the odds were strongly in his favour.

Whenever he is not sure what the odds are, he does not bet. Rule One, do not lose money. Rule Two, see Rule One. And this is Buffett’s biggest “secret”. If you never make a bet with sucker odds, you can’t help but do well over the long term. You won’t win every single time, but over time you will do very well.

 



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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards



Replies:
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 9:43am
If you never make a bet with sucker odds, you can’t help but do well over the long term
 
This is all that investors need to remember but in market frenzies and in an effort to create higher return we chase prices and forget values.
 
In simple terms it means "protect your downside and you would do well."
 
I have a friend who has a personal fortune of more then US $ 100mn all made in stocks and he avoids investing into companies that grow at more then 50% CAGR. he says that all this seems too good to be true.
 
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 22/Nov/2007 at 11:40am
In simple terms it means "protect your downside and you would do well."
 
That means have a margin of safety, doesn't it? In other words, "Dhandho".
 
....US $ 100mn all made in stocks and he avoids investing into companies that grow at more then 50% CAGR
 
Unable to get your point here. Did you mean he avoids 'hot stocks', 'momentum plays', 'breakout scrips' ?
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 12:04pm

Did he get to $100 million by investing in lower CAGR growth stocks? Or perhaps he took lots of risks to get to $100 million, and now wants to take the foot off the accelerator?



Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by kulman

In simple terms it means "protect your downside and you would do well."
 
That means have a margin of safety, doesn't it? In other words, "Dhandho".
 
....US $ 100mn all made in stocks and he avoids investing into companies that grow at more then 50% CAGR
 
Unable to get your point here. Did you mean he avoids 'hot stocks', 'momentum plays', 'breakout scrips' ?
 
 
 
Yes, he does not like companies that grow too fast. Says that one can make a lot of money by doing 30%- 40% every year and anyone who chases 70% is surely set to fall into a pit.
 
You would be amazed to hear that he did not buy PRIL in 2003 because the company was growing too fast but the bottomline was that he is a successful investor and as they say "Money has no colour"
 
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: luke123
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by basant

 
I have a friend who has a personal fortune of more then US $ 100mn all made in stocks and he avoids investing into companies that grow at more then 50% CAGR. he says that all this seems too good to be true.
 
 
 


This is something to be inspired by. Basantji, over how many years has he made all this money?? He must have huge initial capital to get to this figure??


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 1:20pm
Started with a few thousand dollars in 1987!!!He does work so I presume he must have kept putting in money regularly. The main l;esson is that if you can grow without losing a lot of money you would do very very well.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 1:32pm

 

if you can grow without losing a lot of money you would do very very well.

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Excellent. On the same lines of “Winning BIG when correct and losing very less when wrong”. Infact, my best trade is when “I am wrong and I get out without losing”.



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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 6:27pm

“What counts for most people in investing is not how much they know, but rather how realistically they define what they don't know. An investor needs to do very few things right as long as he or she avoids big mistakes.”---Warren Buffet in 1992 Letter to Berkshire Hathaway shareholders



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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: johnnybravo
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 7:43pm

IQ has little to do with investing success. The great physicist Einstein lost his Nobel Prize money in US bonds that defaulted.

As Warren Buffett famously said, “Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beats the guy with the 130 IQ.”

Something that comforts people like me who have -ve IQ.Smile




Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 9:36pm
Investors need EQ and not IQ. Smile


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 10:04pm
As Warren Buffett famously said, “Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beats the guy with the 130 IQ.”

Something that comforts people like me who have -ve IQ.
 
--------------------------------------------------
 
Big%20smile
 
Tushar Bhai....it's nice (& comforting) to know that there are people like me on TED.
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 11:11pm
Before TED, my pet cat used to pick better stocks than me by pawing at the scrolling ticker on CNBC Unhappy
 
After TED, I'm doing quite well but I still consult her for my big investments decisions.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 8:10am
LOL ha ha ha
 
MEOW !!!! Such stock picking is said be better than dart boards.
 
 
 
 


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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: vincent
Date Posted: 23/Nov/2007 at 10:04am
The book "When Genius Failed" is probably a good example of how people with the highest IQ's including two nobel laureates failed in their venture.

Infact even Buffett was asked to help them by buying them out but, as this the title of this topic goes "he never bet on sucker odds!"



http://www.amazon.com/When-Genius-Failed-Long-Term-Management/dp/0375758259


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Time is your friend on the road to wellbeing.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 24/Nov/2007 at 10:14am
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1395 - So You Want To Be The Next Warren Buffett?

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in



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