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What happened globally will happen in India!

Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Market Strategies
Forum Name: Words of Wisdom
Forum Discription: Have you found a golden rule to profitable investing? Share experiences, articulate your thoughts quote a book or a guru.
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121
Printed Date: 19/Apr/2025 at 3:21am


Topic: What happened globally will happen in India!
Posted By: basant
Subject: What happened globally will happen in India!
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2006 at 9:36pm
Great to have you here Manish and do keep providing us with valuable insights. I know you invest in countries as wide and diverse as Argentina to India so you could tell us something which we normally miss. In fact I sometimes feel that an Indian investor's investing style is like a frog in a well. he just does not look outwards and he does not look outwards because he cannot invest into those countries.
 
So if water could and is a huge business in Europe & US we cannot think that companies like Mouunt Everest could some day become huge and since you guys have seen all that happen it becomes so much easier to develop conviction and make money.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in



Replies:
Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2006 at 10:29pm

Basant:

We have some disadvantages too. We can read what is happening in India but we can not SEE.  I dont follow Mt. Everest. Unfortunately I have no idea if water resource is more valuable or distribution and brand name.
 
I feel security business would be huge.
If anybody can comment on ZICOM.
 
So is courier services. I read somewhere that china's courier business grew 100 times! in probably(if I remember correctly) 10 years.
 


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2006 at 10:37pm
I am unable to comprehend what you are sating mr. dave. Are you talking of water resource management or anything like that?


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2006 at 10:38pm
Mt. Everest was just an example, I have no personal idea on that but Vinod Sethi ex Morgan Stanley took a position there.  ZIcom could become huge and subex systaems could grow multifold its flagship fraud management syatem product "Ranger" can find huge application in the telecom industry.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 05/Aug/2006 at 10:50pm

I cant comment on electronic secirity system, but one area where I see tremedous potential is the expansion of Air cooling services in India. I see a lot of potential for ductiling cos. like fedder Lloyd. I saw in the corporate magazine of alfa Laval, that they have the concept of district cooling in France. In India, we are still talking about Centralised air conditioning....dont you think that air refrigeration and cooling space has a lot to offer, especially companies in the service management like fedders

 



Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Aug/2006 at 4:57pm

Another sector Investors could watch out for would be the nuclear energy space. worldwide a major portionn of power requirement is obtained through this route.

The Indo US nuclear treaty would take this process ane step further and companies like Areva T&D (CMP Rs 632) would be a direct beneficiary. Areva is a global leader in nuclear power generation and the chairpoerson of the company recently stated its intention to start this process in India once regulatory hurdles were lifted.
 
Others like Tata Power and Reliance Energy would also join the fray but it would makes sesne to stick with Areva.
 
Generally nuclear power projects run into Us $ 2 billion (Rs 9000 crores) and above. This means that  for a company like Areva with a market cap of Rs 2518 crores the gains could be significant.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 07/Aug/2006 at 1:28pm

Basant,
I don't want to sound pessimistic but I have been watching and investing in Uranium stocks since last 2 years. I saw some posts mentioning low supply of silver/gold etc. But do you know where is the biggest problem. IT IS URANIUM. Now if silver price goes very high, we see less demand and some recycling as silver is not burnt . Oil is burnt but if price goes too high, people will use public transportation, less driving, use ethanol, gas etc. Now U is very intresting. Global demand is 200m pounds. Supply is only 100m pounds. This is since 1993. I know your question(where did they find rest of 100m ponds?). 1. There was draw down on inventory of power plants and most important 2. When Russia broke up, US was worried abt their nuclear arms getting sold in black mkt. Clinton admin made a deal of converting those bomb grade U into mild u for power plants. They named it "Megatons to Megawatts Program". Some people expect that supply will be done in '07. Now U is probably most inelastic metal to price. To explain it better if price of salt goes up 10 or 20 times would it matter to home budget? Its cost is just so much negligible for generating power. But than think if there is not enough supply. Somebody(and lot of them) will have to shutdown plant.

Now on demand side: There are many new plants planned. China is planning to add 1 or 2 every year. India has plan for some 24 of them. Though it takes many years to build them, no body has idea where would they get big "U".

On supply side: As in other metals, it will take years from exploration to mining to refining. But other problem with U is it is most sensitive matter due to radiation and getting all clearances take more time than any other metal.
Since Russia is minting money on oil and metal money and their Nukes inventory wend down, who knows, Putin might start building them back so even less U.

I am not worried abt the price. It is matter of getting the material at ANY PRICE.

Can you throw some light on Areva? Did the name change of that company since I am not familiar with that name so eighter must be new or name changed. Who would be benificiary - areva or parent company?
 
I agree with you on Tata Power and Reliance Energy. It takes 6-9 years to build the plant. So not worth that play. I am more negative on Rel. Energy after split. I dont think management has focus in business. Not coz they have multiple businesses. They have multiple activities other than business.


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 07/Aug/2006 at 1:35pm
Vivek,
Resource is one thing. Making name brand and setting distribution is other thing. If I understand what Mt everest has resource of water with minerals and without chemicals that can be sold in bottles. Not just water out of river that can be distributed through pipeline.
 


Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 07/Aug/2006 at 1:53pm
hi manish
If you see the Chart of uranium.. you will see that it has gone only one way in the last 3 years.. Indicating that there is no "bubble" in th commodity prices. It does not have a futures market and hence no big volatility. The demand of Uranium is currently relentless. Do you know any company in India which makes uranium? And internationally does INCO produces uranium?
any way yours was a great post in this great knowledge forum.


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You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Aug/2006 at 2:02pm
AReva was previously called GEC ALstom. AFter the merger of the parent Alsthom this new company was created. They should do about Rs 28 per share in Fy 07. Since the parent is huge as big as Siemens and ABB I presume they would start looking at India.They do a lot of interesting products that are used to control transmission losses so the opportunity apart from the nuclear power business is big. 
 
Relaince Energy looks more like an Power cum Investment company. I think Anil Ambani is more keen to get into newer busineses rather then manage old ones. The return ratios will tell you the story.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 07/Aug/2006 at 4:31pm
There is another interesting discussion on RayBan - The presmise is the same " What has happened globally will happen in India". You may read the entire discussion by clicking on the following link.
 
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 14/Aug/2006 at 10:39pm
Mr. Dave, are there any other radio-active metals from which nuclear metal can be generated?Actually, what you have said sounds so very interesting.We always look at demand supply gap but we never see the impact of price dynamics' impact on future demand and supply.Taking a cue, if crude goes up in a very big manner, then it may even become viable to produce crude from tar sands in canada.But I beleive power as a sector has to do well.And in this regard, i would like to make mention of Hydel Power. It is renewable source of energy, and i see it coming in a big manner. India could be having numerous SHP(Small Hydel Plants) like we have in China. I do agree, we dont have many perennial rivers but then in North India, we have some rivers.South India will have to depend on other sources of power.And this makes me extremely bullish for copper. I see no alternatives to copper here when it comes to transmission.And with problems looming over mines like escondida, the problem may turn from bad to worse.I beleive falconbridge makes an exciting play alongwith Inco.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 19/Aug/2006 at 12:57pm
Another area where Indian investors  could follow global investors is in the insurance sector.WHile LIC is not listed the listing of private players may create huge investor wealth over the next few years.
 
You may read the argument at:
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=202 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=202


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 20/Aug/2006 at 10:31pm
For a discussion on how we could play the land bank and property companies in India please click on the following link.
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=208 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=208


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 05/Sep/2006 at 6:41am
Vivek,
Thorium is another material used mostly in India. But we dont have enough of that too in production. I think plants dont work on both and they have to designed specifically. Otherwise there is no alternate. Japanese scientists extracted uranium from salt but its cost was more than $200/lb few years back so that is out of question.
 
I agree with you on hydel. Watch JP associates. I am in that company since long time. They have technology, their own power plants, big capacity in cement.
 
Copper is not used much in transmission. In India I heard even house wiring has started using Alumin. But you need copper in transformers, motors etc. Big use of it is in Cars and A/Cs. Copper has a unique property. Bactetrias dont grow on them. You need healthy air. So in AC pipes you can not use anything else. In US they also use copper in plumbing for same reason.
 
Couple of years back I had purchased a company stock(WMC Resources ) which owned 38% known uranium reserves on the planet. That Uranium was mixed with large copper too. They were also one of the largest miners of Nickel and had some gold. Unfortunately company was taken over by BHP for cash last year before big run in metals. I figured out recently from their output that I lost 5-10 bagger.
 


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 01/May/2007 at 10:08am
If anything that has happened in the West and is supposed to happen in India it would be the number of active participants in the stock markets. I think that US has about 50% of its population invested in the markets and the number is just about 5% here in India.
 
Now assuming this number goes upto 10%-12%  by 2012 then we would have a gush of new investors with new money into the markets. How can we welcome those investors into the markets?
 
I heard that about 20 million people are added to the middle class population every year - so there is an incremental crowd waiting to come over also.
 
My sense is we can do so by buying Tv channels with business news, AMC comnpanies, Brokerages etc.
 
Name are pretty obvious here but does anyone have a comparision chart of the active participants in the stock market for the different countries in the developed and developing market?
 
Mr V did put in an interesting thought on China here:
http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=686&PID=22442#22442 - http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=686&PID=22442#22442


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: tyler_durden
Date Posted: 22/Jun/2007 at 9:51pm
basant ji,
          as per you whatever has happened globally will happen here...retail and telecom re examples of that...wats next??

is it logistics? infra? education? water?

regards
kunal


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If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Jun/2007 at 10:41pm
Internet is the one to look out for otherwise all other sectors seem on track media, brokerages,financials all seem to be to be there.

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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 22/Jun/2007 at 12:52pm

We could also look at some of the old sectors - these are not as exotic as media or internet - but still have a long long way to go. The one such sector that comes to my mind is oil and gas.

India's oil & gas companies are like big frogs in a well. They are big yes, but the size of oil and gas companies of the world is staggering in comparison. Examples -
 
Exxon Mobil (USA)       - Revenues of $340 billion
British Petroleum (UK) - Revenues of $267 billion
Sinopec (China)           - Revenues of $98 billion
Gazprom (Russia)        - Revenues of $50 billion
 
While one might argue that, hey, there are big banking companies in developed markets too. Why just look at oil and gas? The reason is - oil and gas industry in India is undergoing a big structural change - they are at an inflection point.
 
- NELP (National Exploration and Licencing Policy) has resulted in discoveries after discoveries of oil and gas (Rajasthan, KG Basin etc) in just 7 years. Before NELP, there were zero discoveries after Bombay High discovery in 1970s. Companies to watch out for - ONGC, RIL, Videocon Industries and Cairn.
 
- Some scientists claim that  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1542698/posts - Central India has more oil reserves than Iraq . Unfortunately, the current technology does not allow exploration companies to drill through hard rock of the Deccan Plateau. This might change in the near future. Companies to watch out for - ONGC, RIL and Cairn - in partnership with global oil majors.
 
- Exxon Mobil didn't become a $400 billion company through E&P within USA. They have their reserves in Mexico, Venezuela, Russia (Sakhalin) etc. Some of the Indian companies like ONGC and Videocon Industries are already following the footsteps by buying oil blocks in Sudan, Indonesia, Russia etc.
 
- India has a huge appetite for natural gas. It can be used to generate power and also used for domestic purposes like cooking etc. While discoveries in KG Basin directly affect E&P companies like RIL, Cairn, ONGC and Gujarat State Petroleum Co., it will also have a positive impact on gas distribution companies like GAIL. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India_Business/GAIL_to_invest_Rs_28000_cr_on_seven_new_pipelines/articleshow/2140053.cms - Gail is investing Rs. 25,000 crores in laying pipelines all over India, and they hope to increase their revenues 3 times in the next 4 years.
 
I haven't covered companies like Petronet LNG, Indraprastha Gas or RNRL - because frankly, I am not quite sure what they do!
 
I see my next long-term multibagger in good old Reliance Industries. It has gone up 6 times in the last 3 years. I have no reason to believe it won't give similar returns in the future too.
 


Posted By: kg
Date Posted: 16/Oct/2007 at 4:20pm
Was going thru this thread ...dont kno abt the price of the uranium but most of the stocks have already become a three bagger in one year time ! tata power , areva t&d and reliance energy ...

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Lets rock


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2008 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by manishdave

Basant,
I don't want to sound pessimistic but I have been watching and investing in Uranium stocks since last 2 years. I saw some posts mentioning low supply of silver/gold etc.

 
Hi Manish,
 
Can u tell us how your trade performed in Uranium? And how is it so far in Amazon short position. Do throw party !!
 
I have not speculated so have never studied commodities.
 
U have amazing grasp of various fields!
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: experteye
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2008 at 5:27pm

Five countries - the US, China, Japan Germany and India - account for nearly half of the world's GDP as measured by buying power in US dollars, according to a new World Bank report.The new data released shows the world economy produced goods and services worth almost $55 trillion in 2005 and that almost 40 per cent of the world's output came from developing economies.In the new tabulations of GDP, the US remains the largest economy in the world with a world share of 23 per cent, followed by China with 10 per cent, and Japan with seven per cent. Germany comes next with five per cent followed by India in the fifth place with four per cent.



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more risk,more profit but have a vision before taking risk,itis all about investment in equities market.


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2008 at 6:57pm
Expert Eye please ensure that your posts are relevant to the topic. I am not sure how this post above (not deleted by me) is relevant to this thread. Similarily there are other threads where you have made some posts which do not gel with the discussion topic.


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: manishdave
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2008 at 10:22pm
Janakbhai,
 
Amazon is abt 6% up after I shorted and I am fine with that. It happens all the time.
 
I made some money in Uranium but not as much as I desired. Reason was that largest producer Cameco had hedged U for long term so selling price was already fixed at lower level and even then price was not cheap so I did some trades on declines. But my bigger position was in WMC which had 38% of known global U reserves. But BHP took that over @30% premium.
 
Currently U is being sold in 90s in long term contracts. But there is still huge gap betn mine production and consumption.
 
Abt Party!!
Accountant(to boss): Company made profit this year!!
Boss: lets arrange party.
Acct: If we expense that, we will get back into loss.
 
 
I found a link that I posted in Dec 2005.
 
 
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_S/threadview?bn=16560&tid=58352&mid=58444 - http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Business_%26_Finance/Investments/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_S/threadview?bn=16560&tid=58352&mid=58444


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2008 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by manishdave

Janakbhai,
 
 
I made some money in Uranium but not as much as I desired. Reason was that largest producer Cameco had hedged U for long term so selling price was already fixed at lower level and even then price was not cheap so I did some trades on declines. But my bigger position was in WMC which had 38% of known global U reserves. But BHP took that over @30% premium.
 
 
 
Hi Manish,
 
I find it very difficult even to closely follow  companies i am interested in,  what they r doing, what their comeptitors r doing etc.
 
Is it not really very difficult to trade profitably in commodities?
 
Jim Rogers might find it easy. I find it very tough. Not my cup of tea.
 
But i will always be curious.
 
Wud always like to learn.
 
Best wishes,
 
JM
 
 


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 03/Jun/2008 at 10:23am
Originally posted by manishdave

Abt Party!!
Accountant(to boss): Company made profit this year!!
Boss: lets arrange party.
Acct: If we expense that, we will get back into loss.


Ha ha LOL

Yet very few are in a position even to think about a party!!




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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: Janak.merchant1
Date Posted: 09/Jun/2008 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by manishdave

Janakbhai,
 
Amazon is abt 6% up after I shorted and I am fine with that. It happens all the time.
 
 
 
Hi Manish,
 
Can u take thru your reasons-logic for such trade?
 
I wud like to learn about trading. What is the best way and resource?
 
I am serious. So thanks in advance. Also which thread-topic wud u recommend-suggest on TEd  where we can continue to discuss this trading points?
 
Best wishes,
 
JM


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I love my money, not my opinion. So i am ready and willing to change my opinion for the sake of protecting my money.


Posted By: PrashantS
Date Posted: 09/Jun/2008 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by manishdave

Janakbhai,
 
Amazon is abt 6% up after I shorted and I am fine with that. It happens all the time.
 
__________

manish ji instead u could have bought puts ...i am sure it would have lost less money compared to shorting it?


Posted By: experteye
Date Posted: 09/Jun/2008 at 9:52am
Of cource we are globlised so we have to bear gains & pains. 

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more risk,more profit but have a vision before taking risk,itis all about investment in equities market.


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 13/Jan/2009 at 9:01am
With the current scenario, perhaps title of this thread needs to be amended (with hope & pray)

Whatever good happened globally only will happen in India!

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Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 13/Jan/2009 at 9:16am
We have to take the good with the bad. My entire capital has been created on this premise and hence I am holding stocks with that concept even now. But yes, the pain has been gruesome but it happens all the time. People learn new ways to lose money as they do to make one.
 
This theme is the best if one wants to make supernormal returns (even after accounting for the supernormal loss).
 
 


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'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: experteye
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2009 at 4:17pm
Fact is fact & it is slowdown...and to me it is just beginning of that.Market is far..far from bottom.

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more risk,more profit but have a vision before taking risk,itis all about investment in equities market.


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2009 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by experteye

Fact is fact & it is slowdown...and to me it is just beginning of that.Market is far..far from bottom.


I'm confused.

One the one hand, experteye ji feels the market is far, far from bottom.

On the other hand, RJ ji talks of the mother of all bull runs to come.

On the third hand, Smartcat ji is making preparations for http://www.december212012.com/ - Dec 21, 2012 .

Aam aadmi  kya karega Confused?


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Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2009 at 5:32pm
Belive in smartcat prediction take a long vaction upto dec 21 2012.........if the world doesn't end then belive in RJ prediction of mother of all bull run which according to him is going to happen in 4-5 years. take all kindda loan play like crazy in F&O and profit..

all win-win situation.


Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2009 at 10:17am
After the FED printing up green notes like there is no tomorrow, looks like now it is India's turn to follow them...  time to start worrying?

Govt is feverishly printing money

The UPA government has completely messed up its finances. Faced with falling tax revenues and huge expenditure increases in an election year, it is printing currency notes like crazy to make ends meet.
At last count, the government had already "monetised" -- ie printed notes -- worth Rs66,946 crore to bridge the yawning gap between revenue and expenditure. As we near elections, it will print more in the hope that some of it will translate into votes.

Whenever the government wants to borrow more than what people are willing to lend it, it simply passes the hat around to the Reserve Bank. It is technically called borrowing, but in reality it is tantamount to printing money to pay for its expenditure.

With so much "monetised" money sloshing about in the economy, the net result is often higher inflation - after a lag. So, if you are celebrating the dramatic drop in inflation from nearly 13% in August last year to just over 5% now, don't. The inflation dragon has only gone into hibernation. It will return.

The reason why the centre's finances are in a shambles is populism. In last year's budget, the centre announced a Rs60,000 crore farm loan waiver. Then there was the Sixth Pay Commission report, and the huge oil and fertiliser subsidies. The net result: as at the end of December 2008, the centre's fiscal deficit -gap between revenue and expenditure that has to be bridged by borrowings - had already spiralled to Rs2,18,262 crore. And this is merely official deficit. Unofficial deficit - which includes oil and fertiliser subsidies that are not shown in the budget - is much higher at Rs3,04,204 crore. And that's a conservative estimate.

The 2008-09 budget had pencilled in only Rs1,33,287 crore as fiscal deficit. The gap between the real fiscal deficit and the budgetary claim has resulted in huge additional borrowings and a frenetic printing of notes.
n Cash balance with RBI falling


Cash balance with RBI falling

The UPA government has "monetised" -- ie printed notes -- worth Rs66,946 crore to bridge the yawning fiscal deficit.

As of January 30, 2009, the monetised deficit of the government stood at Rs 66,946 crore. This recourse to credit from the Reserve Bank suggests that traditional avenues of financing the deficit are not sufficient. Already, more than a quarter of the fiscal deficit as of December 2008, has been met by borrowings from the central bank. Worse still, more of the same may be in the offing as the year draws to a close.

Why? The facts tell their own tale. The economic stimulus package entails huge expenditure. On the other hand, the revenue front is far from rosy. Duty cuts in indirect taxes will render the exchequer poorer by Rs10,000 crore while the slowdown in economy will hit even normal flow of receipts.

Now there's news that, even in regard to direct taxes, the picture is less than sanguine. A Rs100,000 crore revenue shortfall stares us in the face.

The gross borrowing programme of the centre is set to go up to Rs2,52,154 crore from the originally envisaged Rs1,78,575 crore. The Reserve Bank has indicated that more borrowing to the tune of Rs50,000 crore is likely before March 2009.

Thanks to huge spending, the centre's cash balances with the Reserve Bank are falling. Till December 2008, there had been a drawdown to the tune of Rs60,959 crore in cash holdings - the budgeted figure for 2008-09 is only Rs7,224 crore. Besides, the government has availed itself of ways and means advances of Rs11,654 crore. As the exchequer comes under strain, it is a safe bet that the Reserve Bank's credit to the centre, that is "monetised" deficit (defined as Reserve Bank's holdings of treasury bills, and bonds adjusted for the government's cash balances), will also swell.

So, brace for higher inflation later this year or in 2010.

source: DNA





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The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience.
The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience!


Posted By: chimak10
Date Posted: 08/Feb/2009 at 11:32am
With XBRL, you can’t hide

At IRIS, our exercise to develop India’s first XBRL database of listed companies threw up some startling findings. We were stunned that for several companies, the financial statements for financial year 2008 lacked internal consistency in the sense that the numbers reported in the schedules did not tally with the number in the main financial statement. The variations ranged from as high as 40 per cent in some elements in some companies to less than 1 per cent in others.


http://blogs.myiris.com/ - http://blogs.myiris.com/

what is this?????????????


Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 16/Feb/2009 at 8:58am

Recession? The US is in a depression

The cure for a depression is a depression. The situation won't return to 'normal' until this crisis has been able to do its work.
-- Bill Bonner

"It's all in your mind, V. They can take away your job, but they can't take away that brain you have inside your head," she told me, trying to pacify my fears of being fired.

"I guess, you are right," I replied.

"But to tell you frankly, it is not looking good. The US has come up with another rescue plan. This time, the big round number is $787 billion. So if we add the earlier two rescue efforts, the bigger round number is more than $2 trillion. One of the biggest items in this new plan is a $400 payroll tax cut for individuals and $800 for couples.
Some others like retirees, war veterans etc who do not pay payroll taxes will get a $250 payment from the government. The idea is that the beneficiaries will spend all this money, which will help revive a contracting economy and, in turn, save jobs. But I don't think all this is going to make much of a difference," she said, puncturing all the pacification she had just indulged in.

"Why do you say that?" I asked.

"I don't think all the efforts being put in by the US government to get its citizens to start spending will bear much fruit. Private debt is usually around 80% of the gross domestic product (GDP), but right now in the US it is 140% of the GDP. In money terms, private debt in the US is now around $6 trillion and this is after nearly $1 trillion was written off in the last two years. Now, I need not tell you, that is a hell of a lot of money.

People realise that unless they save, they won't be able to pay off all the debt that they have accumulated. People have also lost nearly $30 trillion in value from their homes and investments over the last few years. This has led to a huge change in psychological attitude when it comes to spending. With real estate prices falling and incomes either stagnant or falling, it is natural that people want to hold on to all their cash. Savings as a percentage of income currently stands at around 2%. Now, that rate has to increase if people are to pay off all the debt that has been accumulated. So, basically, people want to save even though the government wants them to spend in order to revive the economy. Get that?"

"Yup, I do. You seem to be getting better and better," I commented.

"You know, David Rosenberg, an economist at Merrill Lynch, has opined that the US economy is not in a recession, but in a depression," she said.

"Depression! But what is the difference between a recession and a depression?" I asked.

"Good question. I Googled and found that there is no precise difference between depression and recession. But a depression is essentially an extremely severe recession. And that is why all these attempts by the government to print and spend money -- and to get its citizens to spend -- to revive the economy just won't work."
"Hmmm! But why won't it work? There have been cases in the past when increased government spending has helped revive many economies?" I questioned.

"You know this is an exception that proves the rule. The prescribed remedy for a government to get out of any recession is increased government spending that leads to its citizens spending more and hence revival of the economy. But this time it's different. People just have way too much debt to pay off and, even if they are given tax cuts like they have been offered in this new plan or lower interest rates to borrow and spend, they just won't spend. All the plans presented till now seek to get people to spend and hence revive consumption. But the economy is in trouble primarily because people borrowed way beyond their capacity and spent too much. As economics and financial writer Mike Shedlock recently put it,
'Consumers and banks have both been burnt, and attitudes have changed'," she replied with great confidence.

"You explained the consumer part of it. But what about the banks...
Why are they not lending? The US government has been helping banks. The increase in lending to American banks as of November 2008 was a staggering $700 billion. Where is all that money going? Even after a lot of government money has been pumped into banks,"

"Hmmm! Just imagine if all that money were to hit the economy. What do you feel will happen?" she asked.

"Well at a very basic level, such an increase in money supply will lead to a humungous increase in inflation. "Inflation is always a monetary phenomenon," this is one of the few things that various schools of economics seem to agree on," I answered.

"Right! The fact is that inflation is well under control even with all this increase in money supply. What does that tell you?" she asked.

"It means that all that money given to the banks is not coming into the economy... But if it's not coming into the economy, where is it going?" I asked.

"Banks are depositing the money lent to them by the US Fed, back at the US central bank. On this, the US Fed pays them an interest of 0.1%. Other than this, the money that banks raise through depositors is also being deposited with the US Fed. Now why would a bank which pays an interest of around 2% on its fixed deposit, go back and deposit that money to the US Fed at almost zero percent?" she questioned.

"It would do that only if it expects to lose more money by lending to people," I replied, finally getting what she was trying to explain.

"But is there a way out of this?" I asked.
"There is a way," she answered. "Economist and investment letter writer Bill Bonner wrote in a recent column, 'There is about $6 trillion worth of debt that needs to be eliminated before the economy can begin to grow again. Liquidation would do it - quickly and painfully'. He seems to be suggesting that the simplest way to get around all this is to write off the humongous amount of private debt that remains and start afresh."

"So why is it not being done?" I asked nonchalantly.
"You know, you can be really stupid at times. If that happens, the US dollar would simply collapse and that of course is not acceptable to the present establishment or for that matter the previous establishment.

But I guess the US dollar would collapse anyway. All those dollars that are being printed to rescue the economy will hit the economy sometime, and, when that happens, inflation is going to go through the roof. When inflation goes through the roof, the world at large won't want to hold on to the humongous amount of securities issued by the US government. They will get out of those securities leading to a crash there. Once they have got the dollars by selling those securities, they will also want to sell off those US dollars and get into other currencies and that my dear, as you have explained in the past, will lead to the US dollar crashing," came as a long wielding response from her.

"So what is the moral of the story?"
"Buy gold. With the expected collapse of the US dollar, all the money is going into gold."

source: DNA





-------------
The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience.
The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience!


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 16/Feb/2009 at 10:26am
Very Good Article.

-------------
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ....


Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 16/Feb/2009 at 10:44am
Fantastic insight.

-------------
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in


Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 16/Feb/2009 at 10:46am
Most people have difficulty because they spent the money they didn't have, to buy the things they didn't need, to impress the people they didn't like.

-------------
Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards


Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 16/Feb/2009 at 10:49am
Originally posted by kulman

Most people have difficulty because they spent the money they didn't have, to buy the things they didn't need, to impress the people they didn't like.
 
US citizens have learned this hard way. Hope we will learn from their experience.
 
 


-------------
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ....


Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 17/Feb/2009 at 1:16pm
This time zone setting needs to get fixed quickly Basantji.
It showing my posts and all subsequent posts as "yesterday" ErmmErmmErmm

-------------
The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience.
The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience!


Posted By: Hitesh Shah
Date Posted: 17/Feb/2009 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by investor

This time zone setting needs to get fixed quickly Basantji.
It showing my posts and all subsequent posts as "yesterday" ErmmErmmErmm


I've stopped worrying. It lends a certain "Twilight Zone" flavour to the whole thing. Like being in Cyberworld or time travelling.... Spooky but fun.


-------------


Posted By: kamleshpatel
Date Posted: 17/Feb/2009 at 5:08am
The crisis of today is the joke of tomorrow.


Posted By: dipankar66
Date Posted: 12/Apr/2011 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by investor


<h2 style="font-family: arial; font-size: 1.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; color: rgb(68, 68, 68);" down="return tkbk('187')">Recession? The US is in a depression</h2>The cure for a depression is a depression. The situation won't
return to 'normal' until this crisis has been able to do its work.-- Bill Bonner<!-- lhs-col -->

"It's all in your mind, V. They can take away your job, but they
can't take away that brain you have inside your head," she told me,
trying to pacify my fears of being fired.

"I guess, you are right," I replied.

"But
to tell you frankly, it is not looking good. The US has come up with
another rescue plan. This time, the big round number is $787 billion.
So if we add the earlier two rescue efforts, the bigger round number is
more than $2 trillion. One of the biggest items in this new plan is a
$400 payroll tax cut for individuals and $800 for couples. Some
others like retirees, war veterans etc who do not pay payroll taxes
will get a $250 payment from the government. The idea is that the
beneficiaries will spend all this money, which will help revive a
contracting economy and, in turn, save jobs. But I don't think all this
is going to make much of a difference," she said, puncturing all the
pacification she had just indulged in.

"Why do you say that?" I asked.

"I
don't think all the efforts being put in by the US government to get
its citizens to start spending will bear much fruit. Private debt is
usually around 80% of the gross domestic product (GDP), but right now
in the US it is 140% of the GDP. In money terms, private debt in the US
is now around $6 trillion and this is after nearly $1 trillion was
written off in the last two years. Now, I need not tell you, that is a
hell of a lot of money.

People realise that unless they save,
they won't be able to pay off all the debt that they have accumulated.
People have also lost nearly $30 trillion in value from their homes and
investments over the last few years. This has led to a huge change in
psychological attitude when it comes to spending. With real estate
prices falling and incomes either stagnant or falling, it is natural
that people want to hold on to all their cash. Savings as a percentage
of income currently stands at around 2%. Now, that rate has to increase
if people are to pay off all the debt that has been accumulated. So,
basically, people want to save even though the government wants them to
spend in order to revive the economy. Get that?"

"Yup, I do. You seem to be getting better and better," I commented.

"You
know, David Rosenberg, an economist at Merrill Lynch, has opined that
the US economy is not in a recession, but in a depression," she said.

"Depression! But what is the difference between a recession and a depression?" I asked.

"Good
question. I Googled and found that there is no precise difference
between depression and recession. But a depression is essentially an
extremely severe recession. And that is why all these attempts by the
government to print and spend money -- and to get its citizens to spend
-- to revive the economy just won't work.""Hmmm! But why won't it
work? There have been cases in the past when increased government
spending has helped revive many economies?" I questioned.

"You
know this is an exception that proves the rule. The prescribed remedy
for a government to get out of any recession is increased government
spending that leads to its citizens spending more and hence revival of
the economy. But this time it's different. People just have way too
much debt to pay off and, even if they are given tax cuts like they
have been offered in this new plan or lower interest rates to borrow
and spend, they just won't spend. All the plans presented till now seek
to get people to spend and hence revive consumption. But the economy is
in trouble primarily because people borrowed way beyond their capacity
and spent too much. As economics and financial writer Mike Shedlock
recently put it, 'Consumers and banks have both been burnt, and attitudes have changed'," she replied with great confidence.

"You explained the consumer part of it. But what about the banks... Why
are they not lending? The US government has been helping banks. The
increase in lending to American banks as of November 2008 was a
staggering $700 billion. Where is all that money going? Even after a
lot of government money has been pumped into banks,"

"Hmmm! Just imagine if all that money were to hit the economy. What do you feel will happen?" she asked.

"Well
at a very basic level, such an increase in money supply will lead to a
humungous increase in inflation. "Inflation is always a monetary
phenomenon," this is one of the few things that various schools of
economics seem to agree on," I answered.

"Right! The fact is that
inflation is well under control even with all this increase in money
supply. What does that tell you?" she asked.

"It means that all
that money given to the banks is not coming into the economy... But if
it's not coming into the economy, where is it going?" I asked.

"Banks
are depositing the money lent to them by the US Fed, back at the US
central bank. On this, the US Fed pays them an interest of 0.1%. Other
than this, the money that banks raise through depositors is also being
deposited with the US Fed. Now why would a bank which pays an interest
of around 2% on its fixed deposit, go back and deposit that money to
the US Fed at almost zero percent?" she questioned.

"It would do
that only if it expects to lose more money by lending to people," I
replied, finally getting what she was trying to explain.

"But is there a way out of this?" I asked."There
is a way," she answered. "Economist and investment letter writer Bill
Bonner wrote in a recent column, 'There is about $6 trillion worth of
debt that needs to be eliminated before the economy can begin to grow
again. Liquidation would do it - quickly and painfully'. He seems to be
suggesting that the simplest way to get around all this is to write off
the humongous amount of private debt that remains and start afresh."

"So why is it not being done?" I asked nonchalantly."You
know, you can be really stupid at times. If that happens, the US dollar
would simply collapse and that of course is not acceptable to the
present establishment or for that matter the previous establishment.

But
I guess the US dollar would collapse anyway. All those dollars that are
being printed to rescue the economy will hit the economy sometime, and,
when that happens, inflation is going to go through the roof. When
inflation goes through the roof, the world at large won't want to hold
on to the humongous amount of securities issued by the US government.
They will get out of those securities leading to a crash there. Once
they have got the dollars by selling those securities, they will also
want to sell off those US dollars and get into other currencies and
that my dear, as you have explained in the past, will lead to the US
dollar crashing," came as a long wielding response from her.

"So what is the moral of the story?""Buy gold. With the expected collapse of the US dollar, all the money is going into gold."

source: DNA



Dollar is not only US currency, it's the currency of the world and there is tremendous political compulsions by most of the nations to keep it that way.
It is not so easy to ascertain the death of the Dollar...

-------------
DD


Posted By: Kautilya
Date Posted: 12/Apr/2011 at 3:31pm
When inflation goes through the roof, the world at large won't want to hold
on to the humongous amount of securities issued by the US government. They will get out of those securities leading to a crash there.
The world is more likely to hold on to US securities as much as possible rather than selling it. The situation is like this....If you owe a million dollars to the bank, the bank has got you. But if you owe a billion dollars to the bank, you have got the bank


-------------
My indecision is final.


Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 13/Apr/2011 at 12:25pm

This is a contradiction. If there is high inflation then the current debt will not be so huge after a few years.

Originally posted by Kautilya

When inflation goes through the roof, the world at large won't want to hold on to the humongous amount of securities issued by the US government. They will get out of those securities leading to a crash there.

The world is more likely to hold on to US securities as much as possible rather than selling it. The situation is like this....If you owe a million dollars to the bank, the bank has got you. But if you owe a billion dollars to the bank, you have got the bank


Posted By: srihsd1
Date Posted: 13/Apr/2011 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by dipankar66

Originally posted by investor


<h2 style="font-family: arial; font-size: 1.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; color: rgb(68, 68, 68);" down="return tkbk('187')">

"So what is the moral of the story?""Buy gold. With the expected collapse of the US dollar, all the money is going into gold."

source: DNA



Dollar is not only US currency, it's the currency of the world and there is tremendous political compulsions by most of the nations to keep it that way.
It is not so easy to ascertain the death of the Dollar...
 
 
It seems a tempting proposition that Gold would be invaluable when dollar fails. But,  If gold is kept on bought for this reason, as it seems one of the reasons as of now, I am afraid one should keep on buying Gold forever. Its easy to conclude that Dollar may not be the reserve currency in near future. But then what could be the reserve currency? Rupee? RMB?
 
Or Gold?(Going back in the civilization?) 
 
We should not only talk about possibilities but also alternatives. I think one is getting into a downward spiral if one is buying Gold on this proposition as I can't think of an alternative.
 


-------------
Best Regards
Sri


Posted By: ramsey123
Date Posted: 13/Apr/2011 at 10:18pm
The world is more likely to hold on to US securities as much as possible rather than selling it.
 
 
I'm not sure that will be the case after the BRICS meeting that is currently underway. It won't just switch off overnight...but soon.


Posted By: dipankar66
Date Posted: 31/Jul/2011 at 10:06am
There are a lot of doubting Thomases who think the US will not be able to reach an agreement about increasing the Govt's debt ceiling.
The Republicans, who are bargaining hard, also have taken a tough stand on this.
But I feel, they as well as the Democrats will not have the guts to push the world economy to another catastrophe which will certainly come about if the US govt. defaults. The Republicans will be surely blamed for it. I don't think they will be happy at the prospect.
Therefore, after the tough posturing, 'AALL IS WELL' will be sung.

-------------
DD


Posted By: dipankar66
Date Posted: 06/Aug/2011 at 8:43pm
S&P downgrade of US is a Black Swan event and will probably have far reaching effect on the financial markets...

-------------
DD


Posted By: koolvalue
Date Posted: 06/Aug/2011 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by dipankar66

S&P downgrade of US is a Black Swan event and will probably have far reaching effect on the financial markets...



As pointed out by Taleb,we are constantly trying to fit
random events around us into a compelling narrative.By deluding ourselves with such make-believe theories,we are
leaving ourselves utterly exposed to Black Swan---

Timely article by Saurabh Mukherjea---behavioural finance-


Posted By: FutureBull
Date Posted: 06/Aug/2011 at 9:09pm
I doubt Even AA+is not that bad... this will increase rate of interest for all of us in long term. It will increase volatility but not the downside

Originally posted by dipankar66

S&P downgrade of US is a Black Swan event and will probably have far reaching effect on the financial markets...


-------------
‘The market always does what it’s supposed to — BUT NEVER WHEN’.


Posted By: nikhil090
Date Posted: 06/Aug/2011 at 9:37pm
 it is not the exact rating change that is disastrous but the "downgrade" for THE US DOLLAR - the ultimate safe haven - which will lead to more people reassessing their position..


Posted By: rohit1889
Date Posted: 27/Oct/2011 at 10:52pm
I was reading KB's book, It happened in India.
He has mentioned that FIIs were first to identify Pantaloon retail as they had seen success of retail in their countries. Indian's were late in getting onto that one.

Seeing recent developments, Indians were able to identify Jubiliant foodworks. It was a good 5 bagger for many of them.
What could be other businesses that are well established worldwide but are in nascent stage in India?

-------------
If you're prepared to invest in a company, then you ought to be able to explain why in simple language that a fifth grader could understand, and quickly enough so the fifth grader won't get bored.



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