This is what the PMS guys buy!!!
Printed From: The Equity Desk
Category: Market Strategies
Forum Name: Trading Psychology
Forum Discription: Discuss the psychological aspects of trading such as fear, greed and discipline. Why stocks are bought like perfumes and not groceries.
URL: http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1143
Printed Date: 16/Apr/2025 at 10:56am
Topic: This is what the PMS guys buy!!!
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Subject: This is what the PMS guys buy!!!
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 12:07pm
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Basantjee, 1. It makes me feel real bad when ever I discuss/mention my PMS. But Gam batne se shayad halka ho jaye!!!! 2. Stock % Holding Avg cost. 1. Shriram finance 10.68 162 2. India cements 9.75 190.54
3. Bajaj Electricals 6.31 559
4. BPL 2.46 85
5 Bata 8.94 204
6. Balaji 10 138
7. Cadila 8.24 297
8. Bombay Dying 8.04 558
9. GTl Ltd 9.65 232.74
10. Infosys 10.63 2049
11. subex Auzre 4.41 596
12. cash 12.19
The last 16 months they have given areturn of 20% which is half of abalanced fund like HDFC Prudence fund.I am furious.
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Replies:
Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 12:12pm
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Basant jee,
I am waiting for you comment on 'smart money' portfolio. Meanwhile I am quite impressed to see following in their book...BPL, bata, GTL Ltd, Bombay Dying, Balaji. If they wanted of this category then they should have picked IFCI as well. ------------- Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle. |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 12:20pm
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xBOXJEE,
1. ADVICE IF I SHOULD EXIT OR STAY PUT.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 12:36pm
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Captain. Seems they have been milking you for exits from their other schemes. It is absolutely disgusting to see the "smart money" behave in such dumb fashion? Just see the nature of industries they screwed up with textiles, electronics, footwear!!!
No one has made money in such business models over alonger period of time. Problem is these people behave like normal retail investors and still pocket that incremental 20% gain over the hurdle rate so in one way it is akin to pick pocketing.
I suggest that thinking about the past will do us no good. Now what you should focus on is how to take care of your portfolio and also forget what happened. These guys will get new people to cream but that is how the story runs.No stock in that portfolio is a sector leader!!!
How on earth could they buy GTL (tainted in the 2000 scam), BPL (tainted in 1997 Harshad Mehta 2nd round of stock rigging)? It is really unfortunate.
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 12:38pm
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xBOXJEE,
1. ADVICE IF I SHOULD EXIT OR STAY PUT
----------
Sorry!! Alok jee, I refrain from advising. Even I don't recommend my own stocks. As market is sinking day by day, it make sense to get out of weak stocks but as future is uncertain, nothing is 100% sure. ------------- Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle. |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 12:55pm
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To top it they have made a loss in the past year Mar 06 to 07 and then they say the profit sharing will be done on the NAV of the anniversary date i.e my loss is a profitable experience for them. I was promised constant feed back by the relationship manager and some interaction with the fund manager. Hasrat hai, ke koi kabhi to khabar leta after taking the money.On my complaint they appologised profusly with the local manager and the eastern regional head washing dirty linen on the conference call with me on the line too. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 1:08pm
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I would realign the portfolio because even if the market falls (I do not know) you are invested so why not be invested in the better known businesses because right now all stocks are down and it gives a good chance for you to get out of the dirt these guys have put you into!!! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 1:17pm
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Captain Sir, Do you know how to fire a Bazooka or a Howitzer? Your PMS manager will try to run but I think you can still get him if you aim correctly. Generally, before creating a portfolio for you, PMS guys should interview you to get an idea about risk profile and holding duration. Did they do any of this? Did you ask them to put your money in midcaps?
If you are a busy person with little time to manage your money, I would recommend you go for 'Wealth Management' services offered by banks like HSBC/Citibank etc, rather than 'PMS'. These guys don't recommend stocks as such, just mutual funds, insurance and fixed deposits.
Basically, based on your risk profile, you will get a decent enough financial plan. Of course, nothing beats doing everything on your own.
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Posted By: deveshkayal
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 5:50pm
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Full-time professionals in other fields, let's say dentists, bring a lot to the layman. But in aggregate, people get nothing for their money from professional money managers.--- Warren Buffett Thanks to Kulmanji ! ------------- "You don't need to be a rocket scientist. Investing is not a game where the guy with the 160 IQ beat the guy with a 130 IQ. Rationality is essential"- Warren Buffett |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 6:03pm
| Kayal Saheb, It is so true. And to add salt to the wound even after writing a mail to the concerned depart no remedy is there . The money is with the company fine but my case seems to have lost it self and has become aturf batele between 2 departments of Kotak |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 7:49pm
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Oh...no! Regret to hear about this Alok jee.
That's why PMS mostly means "Pyaar-se Maaro Scheme" (Read more by http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=359&PN=9 - clicking here. )
Baant jee, another thread http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1005&PN=1%20 - here could be combined with this one.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: India_Bull
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 7:54pm
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Kulmanjee,
Welcome back. How was your holiday vacation? Hope you have not curtailed it because of political (Nuclear deal-Left -Sensex turmoil etc )reasons !!
(I recollect Peter Lynch mentioning whenever he went for a vacation, market collpased !!)
------------- India_Bull forever Bull ! www.kapilcomedynights.com |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 8:00pm
| Kulman saheb, Agar Pyar se marte to bhi chalta tha . After the funds got transfered out of my account it was like bhul gaya sab kuch..... I trying to be a long term invester did not inquire for 15 months thinking long term ment giving the fund manager time to do his stuff. Then on minutly scanning my account I found trade in even HOV which I had avoided on IPO. Also when the scheme was mandated a MIDCAP what business does Infosys have in the portfolio??? |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 8:01pm
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Thanks, I had nice time as usual. Away from hustle & hassles. Since I was out of touch with the happenings, let me get the 'feel' of things. And TED is the best place to catch up.------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: Vivek Sukhani
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 8:05pm
| Add to your survey on the PMS fund managers, may i just ask how many of them sport a french-cut beard?????? How many of them pretend to be so serious while talking on phone.....how many of them pretend to listen so carefully....how many of them pretend to be so committed that they say they even forget their poor wife's name but never forget to remember the minutest details of the company One thing which I have noticed with fund managers and TAUs......they simply have no sense of humility....they all bask in glory( real or unreal, God knows and they know). My only question is if they are so confident about making money than why dont they borrow it and do it themselves....why are they so charitable....why are they so endearing...why so loving?????? |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 21/Aug/2007 at 8:11pm
| Yes Vivekji, this is what I told the the regional head east kotak PMS . If he could open a PMS account he would not be working ( It is another mater that his gigle conveyed to me that he will never have a dearth of bewkoofs like me to place the trust in them ) |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 2:05pm
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Basant Sirjee,
kamal ho gaya!!! I asked the chaps to close my account and wrote about the tardy service being provided to me. Lo! and Behold! they have just send me a form for 'NDPMS ' without any write up or information wrt the product. Now I will go to the Kotak site to find out more.
 |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 2:17pm
On a lighter note why don't you get out from the PMS and buy Kotak Bank. Great way to make money ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: vip1
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 2:39pm
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On a lighter note why don't you get out from the PMS and buy Kotak Bank. Great way to make money
Yeah, why not Buy him rather his stocks
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Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 3:56pm
| Bsasnt Sirjee, am realy trying to take my money and run .But I must tell you the hilarious part, on inquiry the new scheme that they want me to transfer to has a upfront 1% commision and .5% transaction fee rest is 75:25 % sharing. Pehle tedite nahin tha isliye I would not have understood.They have lost money on my portfolio and now they again want to flece me by churning. is there any forum that I can expose this? does the senior managment condone this ? Whom to notify if this being done by people at the lower level to increase there asset Base. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 4:12pm
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On the effects of high The more you pay in management fees and other expenses, the less you'll earn over time.
Source: http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/moneymag/0708/gallery.money_advice.moneymag/4.html - cnn money
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 4:35pm
This is daylight robbery! Tell them you want your money out and nothing else. If they do not respond call up SEBI. Uday Kotak will come running down to Patna and once he is there you know what to do
.------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: vip1
Date Posted: 22/Aug/2007 at 5:37pm
Uday Kotak will come running down to Patna and once he is there you know what to do.
 Wah Basant!
Paise De De Nahi To Dishum Dishum
 Yeh Peter Lynch Ki Kitab me nahi Milega
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Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 6:11pm
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Basantsirjee,
emergency query. Is an account good that gives 4 times exposure to the market@ 18% pa on outstanding balance . is it good to take an exposure like this
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 6:16pm
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No, never this is dangerous though I do it with ICICI Bank as loan against shares exposure is quite less but if you go through with a broker on margin funding then they would make you churn because that is how they make money.
Unless you are very sure of something please do not do this. It normally cuts an investor into half!!! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 6:21pm
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Basant Sir, Kotakwala samne baitha hai asking me to close the PMS and purchase a account that will let me trade with this exposure. All sale /pur routed through Kolkata dealer. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 6:38pm
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Trading a portfolio is only for an expert in that field who does not mind losing some part of his capital.If that startegy suits you then only go for it. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 6:52pm
| No Sir, the people are saying that the cash generated from my PMS will be put in the account . All trades made at my discretion and above this an exposure will be given. |
Posted By: BubbleVision
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 7:15pm
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Alok….I would recommend you going against this strategy if you are NOT a professional trader. For a part time trader, sooner rather than later, he is likely to lose all his money. I met a professional trader a couple of days back, who had 7 consecutive losing trades in copper. Down 3% of his equity in each trade. However in 8th trade, he tripled his money. How many part time traders can trade for the 8th time using the same strategy after having 7* consecutive losses? If you can, then go for low leverage, large positions, small stops and don’t expose more than 2% of your equity on any trade. Good Luck. * I am hoping to repeat his strategy. My last four trades in zinc have all been stopped. I am waiting for the fifth signal. ------------- You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer! |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 9:58pm
| At first this is what I want done . But in case the margin in trade is allowed and instead of churning the porfolio cannot a person use this to buy and hold stocks with 1 year time horizon. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 10:38pm
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Then take a bank loan as overdraft against shares interest rates are lower. Also read this http://www.theequitydesk.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=615 - Buying shares on a loan - Pros and Cons! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: Mr. V
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 11:58pm
| Does ICICIDirect allow online pledging of shares or does one have to sign some physical forms ? |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 23/Aug/2007 at 8:43am
| Kindly note in my opinion debt is not a bad word,with dicipline ofcourse.I think a overdraft facility realy helps in appling for the ipo and enables market entry at times of steep drops.Yes, it does require alot of dicipline but doesnt all stock purchase require it. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 24/Aug/2007 at 12:51pm
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I guess there are some readers of this Forum who work for Kotak. Maybe they could blow the whistle to urge their responsible senior personnel to sort out problems faced by Captain from Patna.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 24/Aug/2007 at 2:09pm
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Thank you Kulmanjee, it is not that I am very sore with Kotak. At the out set when I did not understand a word of equity and thought investment was only FD,NSC and PPF other than my core business of real estate, I opted for the PMS sceme also with aclear understanding that I wanted capital protection as much as growth. Now my Risk taking appitite has gone up so I think informed decisions can be made by me now. |
Posted By: India_Bull
Date Posted: 26/Aug/2007 at 4:47pm
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Captainjee, Just read the entire story about the PMS... I am wondering if all PMS guys do this ? I read advt last year by MOST claiming he has generated more than 300 % returns? If this is the case how can these guys claim something like this. I know few people who doesnt understand market but has handed over the money to these guys ...God knows what could be they earning. ------------- India_Bull forever Bull ! www.kapilcomedynights.com |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 04/Sep/2007 at 10:04pm
| Bsant Sir, I was wondering if you could advice on the IPO funding scheme. A scheme on offer for 5 lakh Power Grid is available at 5% margin and 14% annual interest. What is the prospect of Power Grid ,in the above scheme at 20 times oversubscription one gets 16.5k shares @ 61. Is power Grid good at 61 with a1 year horizon. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 04/Sep/2007 at 10:34pm
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I have never worked applying for IPO under margin based funding but surely if an opportunity comes along it is more about company dynamics then the rate of interest which governs our returns.
I am not aware of Power grid as an issue! ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 06/Sep/2007 at 10:14am
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Basant Sir, I have taken a call on the PMS and have asked the shares and proceds to be tfd to my account this way I can retain what I like and dump the rest. Can you guide me on the prospect of BPL and Bata? |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 06/Sep/2007 at 10:23am
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BPL and Bata - I would avoid them but at this time i have no information so maybe someone with some info can advice. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: equity analyst
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 4:42pm
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Alok ji there are so many good stocks discussed thoroughly in this forum, why don't u pick some good stocks from this forum only. No need of PMS . Read, pick and sleep.
------------- "Markets are the places where two types of people meet up in the morning: those with experience and those with money. Towards the end of the day, they exchange their assets and go home." |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 4:51pm
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Today they have send me the shares into my accont,even here there is a discrepency. bajaj Electricals reflected in my account on 31/08/07 is missing in action.And yes here I must say after going through the Equity Desk did I gain some knowledge into the Porfolio building process. it is unbelivable the stocks chosen in my Pms were bad and most at their 52 week high eg Bata @ 210.00,BPL @ 85. There are other gems that the fund manager loaded on to me and I got the Short term loss. HOV period of holding 1 month.Usha Martin 1 month. Hindustan Motors 1 year sold at a loss.National organics is another gem. The better stocks like ENIL were entered and exited to counter the losses of the Gem. After studing the Acount statement for a year I realise that the whole exercise was to keep my capital intact and off load shares no one is interested in on to poor me.
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Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 5:00pm
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In the process, they have earned brokerage+fund 'management' fees! Wah re wah....No wonder KMB is doing well.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 5:07pm
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The very concept of porfolio creation and incresing holding was not adheared to . I do not know what other people have got out of PMS I for one have learned that it is the individual investor who painstakingly builds his portfolio and not an institutonal person. The returns are inclusive of dividends...... Inthis process neither could I levarage my porfolio for short term gains nor pledge the same .
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 5:07pm
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Kotak Bank, Tv18, United Spirirts, ITC,Indiabulls are companies that do more damage to the normal person on the street yet they do well, on the other hand companies like HUL and Colgatte that help us remain clean are the dirty stocks to remain invested in.
Is it always beneficial to be invested in the businesses that do more harm then good?
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: smartcat
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 5:11pm
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TV18 is innocent. Mithali cannot harm anybody. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 5:12pm
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Is it always beneficial to be invested in the businesses that do more harm then good?
-----------------------------------------------
You mean VICE portfolio, don't you? ------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 5:15pm
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That is a question puts me in amoral dilema. It may be understood in the concept of monopoly.Even Peter Lynch has asoft corner for these companies. Cigg. will sell (they do too inpite of the warning and the tax).In fact Jim Rogers suggests that Drugs should be made legit!!!!
Mind you Colgate and HUL are not saints and keep increasing their product price at alevel higher than the inflation rate as the base cost is low no one seems to notice.There was a story of colgate going for wider mouth tubes so that same consumers may consume more.A dentist only wants paste to be the size of apea on the brush!!!!
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 11/Sep/2007 at 10:35pm
Yes, I forgot the name. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: Mohan
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 12:36pm
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Basantji, There are Mutual funds in the US that are mandated to invest only in clean healthy businesses. No tobacco, alcohol stocks. Some even go as far as no industries that pollute the environment. They have names like green funds and ethical funds. They have quite a good fund corpus too. ------------- Be fearful when others are greedy and be greedy when others are fearful. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 12:51pm
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Yes money goes well with spirituality here as well at least on the Idiot box it does. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 4:05pm
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This reminds me of a visitor on RD's chat on rediff a few years ago - when most of the discussions were centered around Mcdowell, UB and VST Industries(Tobacco), he posted a question to Damani - "my conscience does not allow me to innext in alcohol or tobacco stocks, do you have any other recomendations?"
------------- The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience. The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience! |
Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 4:09pm
too good!   on the other hand, what good can she do?
------------- The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience. The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience! |
Posted By: investor
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 4:11pm
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There are more like United Breweries, etc etc - the list is long. As long as your mind is clear that you are not harming anyone by buying a liquor or cigarette company stock, i dont see what is so wrong about it.
------------- The market is a place where people with money meet people with experience. The people with experience get the money while people with money get experience! |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 4:34pm
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Investorjee, 1. This deals alot with perception. Coco Cola may be good stock but for some it is aperpetual source of draining away precious ground water!!! No one forces a product down the others throat in this free economy. Harm is not done by the company selling vices rather than by the one purchasing the vice!!!
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Posted By: xbox
Date Posted: 12/Sep/2007 at 5:26am
| Is it always beneficial to be invested in the businesses that do more harm then good? ---------------- This reminds me one saying from my brother-in-law. He says in traffic jam take your car to the place which could cause maximum disturbance. |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 09/Feb/2008 at 10:49am
Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Brokerages_roll_schemes_for_small_investors/articleshow/2770259.cms - Brokerages dishing out PMS schemes for frenzied investors
My suggestion: BE CAREFUL BEFORE SIGNING UP FOR ANY PMS.
------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: kulman
Date Posted: 09/Feb/2008 at 11:29am
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Here's Charlie at his best----
I think the reason why we got into such idiocy in investment management is best illustrated by a story that I tell about the guy who sold fishing tackle. I asked him, "My God, they're purple and green. Do fish really take these lures?" And he said, "Mister, I don't sell to fish."
Investment managers are in the position of that fishing tackle salesman. ---Charlie Munger ------------- Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards |
Posted By: tigershark
Date Posted: 10/Feb/2008 at 3:05pm
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when yu have ted why have pms? ------------- understanding both the power of compound return and the difficulty getting it is the heart and soul of understanding a lot of things |
Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 09/Jun/2008 at 11:24am
But you need time to spend on reading and evaluating the content in TED .Not many people have such a luxury of time and hence go for these products .There is no easy way out here . You must put in your own hard work and effort to create wealth for yourself or you must be lucky to have a wonderful person like Buffett / Peter Lynch etc to manage your money . ------------- To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks . Benjamin Graham. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 09/Jun/2008 at 11:33am
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Right. Also while reading the intellect is fine how does one get to manage and handle the emotion the emotion of fear, greed and hope!
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 12:59pm
Classic case is the off repeated quote of Buffett "Fear when others are greedy but be greedy when others fear " but in current context when there is lot of fear very few seem to be greedy . It is easy to load your minds with quotes and insights from Market Veterans but it is a different game altogether putting it to practice in real life . ------------- To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks . Benjamin Graham. |
Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 1:13pm
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Hi Valumen,
What say you is correct. To execute above quote is very difficult.
Because we don't know that how deep & long the phase of fear will remain?
When we bought on 22nd Jan we never know that it can extend to the June 2008 or may be now June 2009.
So it makes our greed into fear.
Parag
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 1:32pm
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50 pc of the market is emotion and the rest is intellect but while intellect can be borrowed it is almost impossible to borrow emotion. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: valueman
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 1:41pm
If you practice what Buffet said ( i.e once he makes an investment he forgets that the stock market exist for the next 10 years ) then there is no problem in the movement of the market on the short term basis and there is nothing to fear and you can enjoy peaceful sleep  If you trying hard to make max returns within 1-2 years then u will be getting lots of sleepless nights ------------- To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize ; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks . Benjamin Graham. |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 1:58pm
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Peolple like Buffet and may I add Basantji are weded to their stocks .They will not disturb their potfolio and are not bothered about its exact value and have fait in the competense of their picks to grow.
For most other people investment is not primary and is made so that the growth may be tranfered out in some cases to other business ar for consumption.
In my opinion even in this down turn( where most people will be loath to look at their portfolio everymorning) some one who is not in the reqirement of cash and earns for his daily bread can easily come out a winner after the next election.As for bear markets,yes a lot of funds are moving out but as suggested in posts here some Sheikh will realise that investment in a growing economy like India will pay results.
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Posted By: paragdesai
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 2:01pm
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I have a long view but I am talking about opportunities that market gives us from buying prospective. One can not timing the market but what we bought in last 2-3 months is easily available 15-20% cheaper today and don't know about tomorrow. Though I have not invested the money with any time frame in my mind but any +ve return in 1-2 years is welcome.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 2:21pm
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It is grossly incorrect and unfair to compare anyone with Buffett. In 20 -20 parlance these are icon players and it is our good fortune that we get to read so much about these people. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: experteye
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 3:18pm
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Cheap or overpriced is not a measure to buy or sell stocks.I do not agree with such concept.It is business what matters ultimately. ------------- more risk,more profit but have a vision before taking risk,itis all about investment in equities market. |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 5:00pm
Basantji,my contention is that it requires a lot of courage and conviction to try and grow wealth from the market.Most lesser people do not take it seriously.Even the 24 hr TV channels are more dedicated to trading rather than the art of investing.Were the channels in the art of investing they would not have more than 2 hours of talking time each day.
I am from a small town and stocks to riches is not a theme understood nor implemented here.It is more a pereferal activity.
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Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 6:08pm
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In 2003 investing in stocks was considered no different then betting on horses, gambling, buying a lottery ticket, by 2007 it became a thing of luck for anyone who had invested in the bear market of 2000 - 03. There is every reason to believe the people who burnt themselves and the one who could not get the 'sour' grapes will have the old comparision ready till the markets enter a bull phase again. ------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: shivkumar
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 7:07pm
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Posted By: shivkumar
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 7:11pm
Playing the stock markets is more prevalent in small towns than we think. Across the hinterland, where women are not allowed to go out to work, they have been playing the markets during the past bull run. CNBC and the online demat accounts played a major role. Of course plenty of tears are being shed now.... Maybe Basant will buy airtime on CNBC at 9.55 am for the next one week and advertise TED! |
Posted By: omshivaya
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 8:02pm
Many people wished that they had found TED 2 years back. And surprise surprise, Time has circled back. Somehow, a time machine has been invented for a one-time use.
I am simply thinking that I am 27 right now and that I have started investeing just right now with whatever I have got now. Only thing is, I want to be into the next Pantaloon . Prices are there...what to choose is the question!! ------------- The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it |
Posted By: aloksahi1971
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 8:11pm
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Omji true.This is the time to stand and be counted.I dont think there is going to be a deacceleration of the Indian Growth story,for all the populistic measures the politicians know for sure that they will get booted out if the quality of life for their voters do not change.This is a big incentive to get development done. This process will call for investments,rise in income levels and increased consumption.So their might be temporary blip but Growth has to happen here.case in point is the coloured hand set how many people notice that most mobile users have coloured handsets !!!! |
Posted By: experteye
Date Posted: 10/Jun/2008 at 9:46am
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Investment not an art & nor an easy task to take decision making skills. It requires 10 years of school to learn & then earn with caution & conviction.I may be proved wrong but that is what market has taught me. ------------- more risk,more profit but have a vision before taking risk,itis all about investment in equities market. |
Posted By: basant
Date Posted: 05/Apr/2011 at 3:43pm
------------- 'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in |
Posted By: itpro
Date Posted: 05/Apr/2011 at 6:40pm
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I had started PMS in April 2008. I dindn't know much of the investment and hence thought this might be the way to go.
This has seen a couple of slowdown ( started in April 2008 ). It had lost 30% during the 2008 but then recovered.
Following is the portfolio
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Posted By: manish_okhade
Date Posted: 06/Apr/2011 at 2:44pm
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ITPro,
Portfolio is definitely good will surely return well over time, it has all of my holdings (eClerx, Akzo etc) so i am biased too... |
Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 06/Apr/2011 at 2:54pm
| very complicated composition. there is everything of everything. |
Posted By: value
Date Posted: 06/Apr/2011 at 10:02pm
Is it pre fees or post fees. Pre tax or post tax?
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Posted By: itpro
Date Posted: 06/Apr/2011 at 11:50am
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This is pre-fees , Pre-tax.
If I do reverse calculation with the exact amount in my account, then I am getting a return of 50% in 3 years. i.e. A CAGR of 14.42% ( exact 3 years ).
Mangement fees is 3% flat. With these many scrips it is becoming like a Mutual fund. Not sure if Mutual fund is better.
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Posted By: master
Date Posted: 07/Apr/2011 at 9:48pm
For 3 years gone by, CAGR of 15% is not bad, usual MF types.
In broader markets, there are large number of stocks which have given >100% + returns post-2008. But in your portfolio except TCS/infy/CG, there are none ( i mean no midcaps or small caps that are big winners). Is it then correct to say they churn the smallcap holdings rather fast?
Is there any discussion with you anytime on your risk appetite etc which influences the selling strategy? What's the tax liability like in % terms?
Respond only if you're ok with sharing it. ------------- Someone’s sitting in shade today because someone planted a tree long time ago. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 07/Apr/2011 at 12:00pm
Yeah and if they indeed do churn mid caps fast then it looks like they sell all losers before sending out reports. In a fast moving portfolio how can one have only 3-4 stocks out of 20-30 stocks in the red
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Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 07/Apr/2011 at 12:34pm
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any idea what is the churn ratio of the protfolio.
You have to compare wiht mutual funds post tax. As MF are tax free.
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Posted By: itpro
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 12:07pm
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@ master: By defination this PMS was a growth with a mix of large cap and mid cap.
@ barla : Churn is low... You are correct ... if we compare with MF then it should be tax free. So that way returns are low.
@ Subu 76: Reports is available on-line and I can get portfolio which is 3-5 days old. So there is nothing like monthly report etc... so no chance of managing the portfolio for reporting.
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Posted By: Catalyst
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 12:15pm
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Too much of skepticism I would say…a client can ask for a report at any point of time…so where is the question of selling out losers before sending the report, it seems more like of conclusion drawing the question…just because there are only 3-4 stocks in the red so they must be churning big time…
And what is wrong in selling losers…isn’t that the way it should be, here we preach Peter Lynch and when somebody follows his philosophy of watering the flowers and cutting the weeds…we criticize…
And isn’t the overall returns take care of the churning part…would someone be happy with mediocre returns just because the churning ratio is lower…
I think the comparison is not apple to apple…while there are lots of stocks which have given >100% returns post 2008…he started his portfolio in Apr08…before the big correction…so the portfolio performance should be considered in that backdrop and not selectively by choosing different time frame…if you are looking at post 2008 performance you should compare the stocks performance from 01-Jan-09…which he might be able to give…
At this point of time it would be suffice to say if you look at the performance since inception of his portfolio (Apr08 in this case) 18.9% v/s 7.5%...its quite good…
Why not other people also share their PMS portfolio performance (if there are any) of last one year…so we could have some better apple to apple comparisons of PMS service providers in the market. ------------- What’s Euphoria, think of it as obscenity. Though its probably impossible to formulate a test for Obscenity but you know when you see it. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 12:17pm
My comment was in the context of master's comment. itpro clarified that is not the case.
On you points in favour of churning
I think applying Peter Lynch's quote may not be correct since stock market losers and market volatility are 2 different things.
Wb and PL have both said lower activity usually leads to better returns in stocks
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Posted By: master
Date Posted: 08/Apr/2011 at 9:25am
You haven't understood the point I made. I'm referring to the last 3 year period to make a like comparison, i.e. before the big correction, that's why i said > 100% (not >200%). Reference to post-2008 was to FY 2009 beginning Apr-2008.
The type of midcaps itpro is holding, quite a few have given 100%+ returns since Apr-2008; check the likes of M&M Financial, Indraprastha Gas, eClerx services, Bajaj Electricals, Motherson sumi, Hexaware Technologies, TTK prestige etc. all have given more than 100%, with some like TTK more than 1000% in this period. But in itpro's portfolio they are returning far lower gains. This has nothing to do with the Oct-08 correction.
This means they have cut out the winners from midcap/small caps, either to perk up the returns or a conscious design known to the managers.
Notwithstanding this, as i said in my previous post, CAGR of 15% is not bad for the 3-yr period gone by.
------------- Someone’s sitting in shade today because someone planted a tree long time ago. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 09/Apr/2011 at 12:17pm
Hi itpro,
The returns from a SIP plan in Nifty for the last 3 years would have been 14.81% CAGR. (I checked HDFC Index Nifty SIP returns on moneycontrol)
The returns from a SIP plan in Nifty for the last 3 years would have been 15.46% CAGR. (I checked HDFC Index Fund Sensex SIP returns on moneycontrol)
Do consider a SIP based investment plan on a major index as well.......
More than tracking returns from one point to another it's important to find out the investment outlook for the fundmanager as that will decide the long tern returns. |
Posted By: barla
Date Posted: 09/Apr/2011 at 12:36pm
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If you have the knack then direct equity is the best.
Mutual fund after that. PMS last. PMS is good as part of an asset allocation model if you have a lot of assets. Some portion of money in direct equity. some in mutual funds. Some debt and FD. A little in PMS. Akin to the trading portfolio. As the PMS guy will manage all the statements and records. You are saved of the hassle of tracking the paper work. Also the cash lying with PMS is generally invested in some avenue generating better returns that savings account. But PMS as your primary vehicle for a medium sized or small investor is inappropriate. So comparing PMS to other avenues is not appropriate. This is my personal view. |
Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 23/May/2011 at 11:46pm
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The other day moneylife contained an article about returns from Kotak PMS> Ooh my God...IT SUCKS BIG TIME...
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Posted By: subu76
Date Posted: 23/May/2011 at 11:50pm
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Not really a PMS post... So i's looking at Taurus Discovery Fund - G... Their 5 year return is (hold your breath) 2.2% I think the monkey portfolio would beat this sort of fund hands down.... Here's the best part I looked at their top 6 holdings (got tired after that) bharat forge - no loss no gain Sundaram forge - 76 - 61 Gail - 161 - 434 Rallis 198 - 1390 HCL - 272 - 497 Jain Irrigation - 50 - 177 So 4 of the top 6 stocks has been multi baggers and yet the Mutual Fund has provided very poor returns And yet we put in money into such funds? |