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kulman
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 6:34am
One ex-Mungerilal who lost huge amount in Sugar sector had this to say about Sugar Sector Specialist who is a regular on biz TV:
 
"The only thing that stands out in his analysis are his EARS !!"
 
 
Life can only be understood backwards—but it must be lived forwards
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Ajith
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Quote Ajith Replybullet Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 8:46am
Hi  Ramki830,
                      I would agree entirely with you now that you have put across yor views so clearly.MRF is another case where raw material prices especially rubber impacts profitablity considerably.Last quarter results were superb as price of rubber dipped, and in the ongoing quarter ,with rubber moving up profits may  take a tumble.


Edited by Ajith - 01/Feb/2007 at 9:00am
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xbox
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Quote xbox Replybullet Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 9:11am
If somebody wanna see all sugar companies and their prices etc. What is most easy place in moneycontrol.com ? any guess ....
 
[52-week low page] LOL
Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.
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Vivek Sukhani
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Quote Vivek Sukhani Replybullet Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 9:37am

I beleive we need to look at sugar and steel a bit differently, at least we need to look at TISCO and Balrampur/Bajaj Hindustan separately. I will illustrate here.

1.TISCO is a fully integrated player whereas the sugar giants are dependent upon cane prodicers for the supply of raw materials.

2.Politicians have a bigger incentive to disincentivise sugar mills. The popular involvement is very high in case of sugar, not so much in steel, so the government is very likely to react on sugar bouncing up too much.

3.Most of the acquisition made by Sugar plants have been inside the country, they did little to diversify the country risk. TISCO on the other hand, has made expansion overseas. Be it NatSteel, Millenium Steel, Bluescope Joint venture or Corus.
 
4.The balance Sheets of sugar stocks and TISCO are vastly different. This is a quantitative subject on which I will come later.
 
5.Management quality is very very different. TISCO never came on the revered CNBC and talked about carbon credits. The focus of TISCO is missing in most of the sugar companies.I still remember, how these sugar guys used to talk during their hay days. They used to talk so loud and clear about their grand plans.... where have they gone. They had so much to say on ethanol, where are they now? They had to say so much on demerger, remember, triveni Engineering.... now what? TISCO never indulged in all this stuff.
 
6.Most of the sigar companies have diluted their shareholdings and TISCO hasnt. This is perhaps one of the most important distinctions. I am sure, if the market beats down TISCO a lot, they will pick up their stake from the market, like they have done with some of their companies like Tata Chemicals, but as far as sugar stocks, they simply dont have the guns to buy-back the stocks which they have issued at such a premium. they know only how to dilute , and consolidation is something which appears to be least on their agenda. 
 
Now i will come to benefit for retail shareholders aspect.I belive retailers are here to lose money, in case they dont apply foresight, which is the case with most of them. The opportunity cost which tempts them to sell indiscrimately makes them repent. They want Hot stuff, but they forget that they dont have the stomach for Hot Stuff. So, i beleive its needless for a company to think of them. They show faith in wrong things most of the time, and show utter sceptism most of the time, so there is little to help them. So, if you only think ticker gives you the return then watch the tape and make money if you can....So, although I belong to the community of retail shareholders but am proud to hate them. I admit I talk harshly but I simply dont beleive that thiose who change their faith at the drop of hat deserve to be called investors....
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Quote xbox Replybullet Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 9:57am
I admit I talk harshly but I simply dont beleive that thiose who change their faith at the drop of hat deserve to be called investors....
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Quite a big statement, Vivek jee. We all reserve our right to be investor and trader. If sugar is bitter for you then we can discuss any other commodity.
Don't bet on pig after all bull & bear in circle.
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Vivek Sukhani
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Quote Vivek Sukhani Replybullet Posted: 01/Feb/2007 at 10:49am
Well Vipul, its a small statement froma very inexperienced kid on the block. But, then inspite of my smallness I have been a decent learner...and sugar has never been bitter for me in any case for I sold off my little holdings in sugar stocks in the rally at quite a decent price although not at the peak but my selling price is way above the CMP of the stocks I sold. So, I am grateful for the sugar stocks. I have not said anything for traders.... I have said it for investors. Investment require faith which is inshakeable, for trading the attributes required are different.
 
As far as discussing any commodity goes, I have no issues. I am against bracketing any sector. I beleive every sector will have a cyclicality element, the degree may vary.... All I try to do is to look at Key sectors whose performance can be the drivers..... I beleive service Sector should be looked as servicing sectors. They generate demand from key sectors. I am putting a slightly different version of Dow Theory here. I beleive, the sector to take the heat first id the Transporation and Utility. Thereafter Industrials get into the scene and lastly service sectors will enter the fray. In case of India, we see the scalability to be very high in service sector as we have been in a nascent stage. so, they will rise the highest. But even then, its the pick up in the industrial space that will shape up the demand for service.Rather than looking at business cycles , we should observe the transition from vicious circle to virtuous circle. So, long as that is intact, cyclicals will do well. Demand will take care of the supply. When the flow changes from virtuous circle to vicious everything will get affected.Sigar has been an exception along with textiles simply because of the hype element, else sugar could have also done well but for the lack of foresight and ignorance of potential risks is what that did them in.
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s_praharaj
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Quote s_praharaj Replybullet Posted: 02/Feb/2007 at 6:27pm
Thanx Vivek, for the analysis,
I don't know why, but I like your kind of approach to the things.
 
I went through your post. Your getting dissapointed is reasonable.
However from the computation logic you have explained later, it is not at all difficult to raise the money to acquire Corus.
Though I have not read any of the reports fully, I am sure no body has so far said that Tata would find it tough to raise the money. In fact it was clear as day light that Ratan Tata and team were confident of raising the required money even at a higher than 608 pence price.

Now let us come back to the possible reason for dissapointment. The reason could be that the price tanked . Well from my point of view it was reason for rejoicing and not dissapointment. The 1st day reaction was supposed to be based on the fact that, though Tata would be able to raise the money easily, they would find it tough to service the increased equity as most of the earnings would probably be utilised to service the debt leaving little for the shareholders. Well it seems no body is disputing that either.

In addition, today's paper says (I forgot who is the analyst), the reaction of y/day was due to day-traders (you can add short-term speculators to it) quiting the scrip, and I would agree with him.

It is not as if I donot have any concerns. These are;

1. Steel is a commodity stock. We have seen lots of ups and downs in the short period of last 2years!! (If it is cheap at 460 or 500 today, what it was a year back ?).

2. Normally it is expected that Tata would try to change something in Corus to make it more profitable. The locals may resist. And UK only listen to USA (not even to other Eurpean countries). UK is no less political than India. Some noise has already started and the unions are meeting Ratan Tata soon.

3. We all value a low debt company. As Tata would now take huge debt, will it affect its rating. If many analysts say it would, then it will, irrespective of the actual facts. It is not enough that Tata should be good. It is also required that others are not better. And what is the compulsion to be in a metal stock that too in steel. If lots of investors think that there are better industries with lesser risk, that too would affect the price in the future.

Most people will answer that, all these above should not concern the long term investors who should only go by true value of the "company he is buying" into.

Well how long would be this long term ??

One answer could be - how long Tata would take to clear  the debts. Can u compute this?

Shashi Praharaj
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mukesham
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Quote mukesham Replybullet Posted: 11/Feb/2007 at 9:40pm
Today sugar stocks are treated as untouchables.No one is at all optimistic.Pessimism pervades at every level whether one sees the april or june sugar futures at NCDEX or reads the interview of those who are controlling sugar majors or  any of the brokerages's research reports or listens the technical analysts.Does anyone at TED is looking at sugar stocks as a value investors or classic contrarian investor.Does't Balrampur Chinni or bajaj Hindustan merits investment on replacement cost basis? 
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