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omshivaya
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Topic: Can you cash out before it crashes in?
    Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 7:30pm

Well, I was thinking something like this:

 
Suppose the valuations are getting stretched too much and there is kind of a feeling that a crash is on the offing sonner than later, then what have you planned?
 
There are 2 psychologies here:
 
1) Suppose I anticipate the market is going to crash and in fact it does not fall , then we could miss out on the returns on the stock. In this case, if we cash out out entire portfolio then we could miss out on the returns.
 
2) On the other hand, if we keep our portfolio intact saying "holding good stocks will always pay in the long-term, so I shall hold onto my stocks no matter how many bear or bull markets comes". In this case, in a bear market(if it continues for 1 year or more), I am not going to get appreciation on my stocks so I miss out on a year or two's returns which could be heart-breaking to a big extent.
 
 
So what to do here? One of my strategies COULD BE:
 
1) Take out 25-50% of my portfolio out and put it into a "floating rate" fund to earn some small return out of that 25-50%.
 
2) The rest I keep in equity.
 
 
Now, there are 2 things that can happen here:
 
1) Bull run continues. In that case, my stock portfolio gives me returns(which minimum could be 10-15%) and small returns out of my non-equity fund.
 
2) A CRASH takes place within a few months of my anticipating it. In that case my 25-50% earns returns out of the floater fund or some other good fund, while my portoflio goes down and down.
 
 
When my portfolio goes down 40% or so(which is what it should go to, when a CRASH OCCURS, else it is not truly a crash), I deploy the 25-50% money back onto the stocks.
 
 
In this case, my bleeding in case of a crash would be lesser and my portfolio would recover faster WHILE in case of a continued bull run(if I was wrong about the crash), I keep earning returns of the market from my portfolio while I earn a small return out of my floater fund's money which I cashed out from the equity(in anticipation of a crash).
 
 
When we can apply this practically(which is not at all difficult), the FEAR OF A CRASH would disappear from my our mind as I am ready for it.
 
 
I am sure if we get many more thoughts from the members, I should be able to refine this strategy even more and in fact I may be able to even get much better strategies from others. My strategy above I feel is very easy to apply and safe. Only thing it requires are 3 things:
 
 
1) Cashing out 25-50% and putting into a non-equity fund.
2) Re-Deploying it back when my equity portfolio comes down 40% or more.
3) Have patience after that.
 
 
I think this should get the BALL rolling. What do you think Basant jee:-) Maybe you do not need to set 2010 as a dead-end for 100% cash-out? What say? 
 
Thanks for taking my input, appreciate it!


Edited by omshivaya - 10/Sep/2006 at 7:42pm
The most important quality for an investor is temperament,not intellect.A temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd nor against it
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kulman
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 7:59pm
OmNamoShivaya
 
Thanks for valuable inputs on "crash management.
 
On the basics on equity investing, one should first find out "who am I?"
 
I came across a nice article about this on equitymaster.com. The extract of which is given below:
 
Can you spot YOU?
 

 

Informed
Investor

Uninformed
Investor

Trader/
Punter/
Sattawala

My view on…

 

 

 

Stock market is

An efficient platform

Scams

Casino

Equities are

Better investment avenue

Very risky

Fast money

Risk profile is

Moderate

What is the risk?

Who cares?

Return expectations is

Moderate

If it works, it works

minimum 100%, in one month

Investment horizon is

3 to 5 years

Short-term works

Less than 1 day

Buying strategy

Regular investor

when market is close to peak

What strategy?

Fundamental analysis

Works

Makes sense, but…

Who cares? What is the target price?

Company management

Extremely important

Indifferent

Does not matter

Technical analysis

Not my cup of tea

Seem to work at times

What is the target price?

Research Report is

A balanced scorecard

What is the target price?

What is the stop loss?

Stock price reflects

Growth prospects

Not so clear

Don’t care

A broking firm is the one that

Does what I say

Knows in and out of markets

Gives tips

Media/Newspapers are

Used as updates

Experts in equities

Source for tips

Harshad Mehta/Ketan Parekh

Unlikely role models

Made money

The Gurus

Rumour mill

Doesn’t get swayed

Easily swayed

Fast cash

 
Before investing a single penny in stocks, just identify 'Who am I'? The rest should not be difficult.
 
 


Edited by kulman - 10/Sep/2006 at 8:01pm
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 8:05pm

Thanks Kulman for the valuable input. Also, if you have a strategy in mind, for your portfolio's "crash-management". do post it. That is what the ultimate motive of initiating such a topic was.

I think most people dont have a crash-management technique ready and that is why I feel it is even more important to talk about it, so that hidden FEAR that is somewhere down inside all of us can come out and we can talk about it openly. I am looking for hard-core strategies in facts and figures, which is possible. Let's put our mind to it, it will come!
 
 
Thanks again!
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 8:16pm
Omnamoshivaya jee
 
My sense is that without worrying too much about where markets are headed, one should approach the stock markets with "value investing" proposition.
 
When asked what he learnt from Ben Graham's book "Intelligent Investor", Warren Buffet answered 3 very important things:
  1. A stock is a piece of a business, if you don’t want to own the business don’t buy the stock – analyze the business
  2. The market is there to serve you not to instruct
  3. Know your Margin of Safety with every investment
Ben Graham's famous words also should be kept in mind:
"You are neither right nor wrong because the crowd disagrees with you. You are right because your data and reasoning are right."
 
Stock markets are most of the times irrational, so lets aim to take advantage of this mismatch between value and price.
 
Individual risk appetite and asset allocation is of utmost importance in deciding "exit" strategy. If your price/value targets are reached, it is better to cash out (partially at least).
 
What do you think Basantjee?
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 8:33pm
Again I would like to re-iterate Kulman, when I buy a stock I "buy the business" and that is true what you said 100%. But if someone can make the portfolio shock-proof for a crash to some extent, then it should be tried at least.
 
Stock markets are most of the times irrational true! But that doesnt mean we dont try to evaluate when the irrational can be dangerous to our portfolio.
 
 
I am not at all talking of an exit strategy. I am talking of a continous staying-in inside the stock market for many years, and trying to make the best out of  a crash, if it arises somewhere.
 
 
My assumption here is the stocks we are holding are good companies. In case any stock has gone up, despite its fundamentals looking weak, that should be exited and that is another topic in itself.
 

And Kulman jee, "we are not predicting where market is headed" but are finding a common ground between what we should do IF it goes up or when it goes down.

 
Trust me, all you have said is excellent, but when markets will crash, and would stay in consolidation for 1-2 years after that, most would have wondered if they could have devised a strategy for handling his/her portfolio better.
 
For example, I too have a target for 2010 till then I want my portfolio to be 90-100% equity, after which I want to adopt my crash-management strategy so that a "crash" doesnt take away all the gains. At the same time, in case of a continued bull run, I don't want to miss out on any further gains

 


Edited by basant - 12/Sep/2006 at 11:14pm
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Quote kulman Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 11:15pm
OmNamoShivay Jee
 
Its really nice to get insight into your thinking. There is no dispute that we are all here to invest in equities to make money. Money is not ours unless we see it. Notional profits are of no use.
 
The most dreaded words which drive the markes are "fear" and "greed" i.e. sometimes even when we know that a stock is overvalued, we do not sell (even after making good money on it) with a greed factor. Nowadays after recent run-up (last 4-6 weeks), people have been getting back into the market with a feeling can't miss the rally.
 
My submission is that: 
  • have asset allocation planned out, keep on reviewing allocation % every six months and then adjust the accordingly. (equity/debt)
  • keep on booking profits whenever valuations appear abnormally high
  • set a realistic target for returns from equities (which should be reasonable, say two to three times the fixed income returns).
  • have discipline to sell
  • do not marry your stocks
  • do not chase prices, its a moving target
  • do not chase trends/momentum, instead get into unpopular sector (contrarions). This way your returns will be higher than average.
 
To overcome our fear of losing the best strategy is the "exit" strategy, its not about exiting the market fully, but about partial/full profit booking from individual stocks. 
 
I differ from this 2010 theory. At this point of time, we do not really know what will happen in between. There could be many more downsides/bear phases (read: OPPORTUNITIES) till that time maybe due to external factors such as US economy, US-Iran tension escalation etc etc.. And who knows, India would allow full Capital Account Convertibility by then, and we would be able to invest in overseas markets. We then might be discussing in this very forum about European/American Stocks!

Edited by kulman - 09/Nov/2008 at 9:29pm
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 11:32pm

There was no 2010 theory. It is my "target". Of course, we dont know what happens betwen now and 2010 and that is the only risk which I am willing to take, at least till 2010. But even in that, I have 10% in cash for an eventual mishappening to redploy it.

 
I had some X amount of TCS from IPO and have sold some off at around 1500 to enter into nucleus and some is in cash for eventual buy points between now and 2010. But my strategy for 2010 and the "crash-management" is still intact for myself, at least till 2010.
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Quote omshivaya Replybullet Posted: 10/Sep/2006 at 11:36pm
Also, you talked of debt. For now, I am keeping my focuss off debt. Debt will play a part in my strategy after a few years. As I said, from now until 2010 I have a fair bit of cushion strategy, but still I am acknowledging there is a risk from now until 2010.
 
 
If all goes well till 2010, I have my crash-management strategy which shall to  a large extent handle this risk, unless of course equity investing goes totally out of flavor in India, which I doubt!!
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