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basant
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Quote basant Replybullet Topic: The dividing line between Hope and Hype
    Posted: 28/Aug/2006 at 5:08pm

The dividing line between Hope and Hype

 

There are numerous instances in life when investors are unable to differentiate between Hope and Hype. To the intelligent and the informed (if ever there are in the stock markets) hype is exaggerated and unrealistic hope. While the words sound quite similar the after effects of each of these waves are extremely contrary to one another. Hope lends light to life while hype leaves behind financial scars that are difficult to get away from. Very often in cases of hype the music stops but the people are still seen dancing. It is painfully ironic that both hope and hype are four letter words.

 

Sir Isaac Newton remarked in the early 1700’s, “I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies but not the madness of people”.

 

It may be of significant interest to the bruised and battered bulls of Himachal Futuristic and DSQ Software (Stocks that fell 99% and more off their 2000 peaks) that Newton doubled his money in the South Sea Company. He made a profit of 7,000 pounds and then the hype got to him again. He re-entered again at the peak and lost 20,000 pounds. Did any one say that even Newton could not defy the laws of gravity?

 

Many would say that the Nasdaq rise in 2000 was hype. The 2000 tech bubble was a complex mixture of  hope with hype. Initially till 1998 stocks rose on hope - thereafter the rules of the game changed from revenue and profitability to eyeballs, number of web site hits and so on. While smart investors cried hype and bought on mistaking the hype for hope the lesser intelligent mortals as usual were the first ones to be trapped. The wonderful thing in hype or momentum investing is that people expect the end to be sudden painful and catastrophic but refuse to accept that they could be trapped.  “ Behti Ganga mein haath dho lo” (Wash your hands in the running river) is the common advise and “It is different this time” is the general mistake. In stock market parlance this is known as “Momentum Investing”. Caveat emptor - the running river surely has the power to run away not only with your hand but also with your house. Usually the hype again ends with hope – the hope to make good your losses but betting on this hope is hopeless as stocks rarely retrace their peaks in a hurry.

 

How do you spot Hype: Analysts, investment bankers and stock market commentators give out the first signs of hype. Whenever the basic rules of investment are altered and changed to suit the already absurd looking valuations one may conclude that hype is engulfing hope. The replacement cost theory in 1992 took me over. When I bought shares of Tata Steel at 700+ in 1992 (at the height of the Harshad Mehta boom) I desperately tried to convince friends and relatives that the cost of setting up a Steel plant of equivalent capacity would far exceed the market capitalization of Tisco, I was upbeat on the land at Jamshedpur, the cross holdings that Tisco shared with other Tata group companies and lo and behold after a dozen odd years I am yet to see that price leave alone the interest. Why should we talk about interest as they refuse to calculate interest in stock investments perhaps inserting the interest element would make stock losses look more concerning then they actually appear to be?

 

In 1989 the Japanese Stock Index (Nikkei) sold at 70 times forward earnings and at 40,000 investors were still betting on the bulls. Probably they were betting on a price earning expansion from 70 to about 100. Hype was certainly enveloping the air. In the next decade and a half the Nikkei has given away 75% of its 1989 peak.

 

During the 2000 tech bubble or shall we call it a tech balloon when analysts and investment bankers were unable to justify the phenomenally high and absurd valuations of internet companies a new word was discovered “eyeballs”. The magical theory of eyeballs substituted Cash flows, Revenues, Net profits (the traditional theories of equity valuations). People were basing calculations on the growth in eyeballs year after year. One of the largest Indian Software Companies (Satyam Computers) bought an obscure looking Internet Company for Rs. 499 crores. History was made and all leading newspapers pink and white carried photographs of the smart gentleman who sold a company with sales of about Rs 1 crore at almost 500 times sales. Now did you ever think that it is only the retail investors who invested on hype?

 

How can Retail Investors safeguard themselves: Many investors assume that periods of hype are the times to make money. Just buy at the initial signs of activity and sell at the top. For the intelligent however hype is the time to safeguard his wealth, his house and also his shirt.

 

The strength of character in a retail investor lies in fending off these hypes. When he watches his neighbor changing his old Maruti for a Lancer a desire to graduate from a motorcycle to a car is bound to generate. Unfortunately after a while both of them are seen looking for rented one room apartments swearing never to see the face of the broker and the markets.

 

A man of strong character would fall back to the basics probably invest some money where he sees reason rather then hype. All great investors including the likes of Warren Buffet advise investors to pull out of the markets but to me that kind of a foresight is neither existent nor expected. Only if investors were to avoid stocks in which the hype factor exceeds the hope quotient the battle is won. After all the trick to investing in the stock markets is to avoid losers as much as it is to pick up the winners.

 

A few interesting moments when the world went Hype(r)

 

The Hype

And the Bust!

What they gave /

taught us

The Tulip bulb mania 

Tulips were bid up more then 50 times and people sold land and homes to buy Tulip bulbs. Finally as with all manias the smarter guys offloaded and the common man was left holding his tulip flower

That flowers are flowers and should never be looked at like investments.

US Rail road accident of the  1850’s

While business was booming and the sector needed excess doses of capital, unrest and war in Europe signaled rising interest rates. An over supply of paper by the Railroads coincided with European investors pulling out from US bringing down stocks from their highs.

 

A network of Rail and Road Transport line connecting the whole of the United States.

Bull Markets of the early 1920’s

The bull market of the early 1920’s was followed by the Great depression of 1929 – 33 where stocks gave back 90% of their value

.

An Industrial boom and also renowned economists like Keynes.

Japanese Stock Market boom 1989

At 40,000 the Nikkei was discounting its earnings 70 times. The index was at a P/E of 70 times. The index lost 75% in about 10 years and looks set to shed a few more.

 

Lessons that everything that goes up in a hot air balloon must come down once the air is out.

The crash of the Asian Tigers

(1995 - 98)

A false sense of Real estate boom was incorporated as banks lent more on Real estate. Particularly piquant was the doubling of property prices in Hong Kong in about 3 years encouraging tenants to take mortgages, - finally sanity prevailed and Real estate prices headed southwards.

 

Emerging markets are very easy for investors to make money and also to give back what they make.

The Hot Dot Com Tech bubble (1997-2000)

Analysts, Fund managers, Investment bankers forgot their text books and started valuing companies on the basis of eye balls, web site hits etc. For Companies with Revenues and Cash flows the growth rates were assumed to be 100%. That means a Company was expected to grow sales by 500 times in 10 years.

The Computer, software, productivity growth and the Internet without which this report would never have gone to you

 

How many times have we seen the Indian markets going up on the basis of high FII flows the previous day? Well as they say markets are never wrong only opinions are. It is really a very confusing and complicated place to make a living.

 
 
P.S: Would like the readers to list the their picks in the over hyped sectors it could be brokerages, retailing, infrastructure, sugar anything so that we could discuss on the sectors and bring out the finer points.
 

 



Edited by basant - 28/Aug/2006 at 5:15pm
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Vivek Sukhani
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Quote Vivek Sukhani Replybullet Posted: 28/Aug/2006 at 8:55am
Mr. Basant, I fully endorse your views.I rarely find any buys nowadays. I am unable to sell, as my fibonacci targets have gone hayware and now I sense 12450 on the sensex quite easily. Also I see an inverted head and shoulder formation which is lending so much weight.
Coming to your point, how one should be making an entry and exits, I think investors must be taught not to be imaginative.Whenever, a person tells me expected EPS, I simply run away...we live in present and thats what should matter to us.Also, I think one must dissociate oneself from complicated thinking.Markets get associated and dissociated without any notice(like Gold and Dollar-Famous coupling and de-coupling). And most importantly, as my grandfather taught me, one should keep his ears closed and eyes open in trading, that to me was the best maxim I had come across.
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Quote Ajith Replybullet Posted: 29/Aug/2006 at 2:48pm
 You are right,Mr. Basant.In India there has ben no bear market for the past 21 years that I have experienced where money could not have been made within the bear market itself leave aside the obvious huge opportiniteies for the patient investor.
I read through Wanger after my last post and (it was 6  years back that I last read it)and he has forecast all major trends in India for the 6 years in the chapter on trends.Also,he is remarkably level-headed.In 1996 itself ,however he was questioning internet valuations.No one is perfect.It
is,I think better to let your profits run but while buying one has to attempt perfection-so that as someone(I do not remember who)said one need not bother about selling.One must not overpay.Very difficult to implement-a fiercely independant  spirit is needed.
    I like Wangers emphasis on  4 or 5 year trends forecasting and also his humble acceptance of mistakes and  the pitfalls of forecasting.
    Take retail.We all seem to agree about the huge opportunity but what shape reality takes is not absolutely clear ,is it?We are all extrapolating opporunities optimistically-human nature is like that- without fully taking into account possible external economic shocks,competition and unknown factors.However ,I am aware that it is those who stick on to the right winners who make big money.
   I am going to go through all those investment books again and again.
          


Edited by Ajith - 29/Aug/2006 at 2:50pm
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 29/Aug/2006 at 4:04pm

Very piquant observation Yes, you could have made money in all the bear markets PSU and Pharmaceuticals stood out and rather gained during the NASDAQ crash during the 1994 and 1998 the software majors held ground and gained. See India being a developing country there would always be areas where growth would not be a problem.

So let us say for instance that while we all agree that retail, Insurance, Media, Private Banking could be huge the problem is to identify the right winners. A question was raised that whether pantaloon possesses execution risks and I said that it did and probably there lies the opportunity to make a 10 bagger. Reliance faces a larger execution risk but they can handle it with their petrochemical cash flows so you will never make a 10 bagger in reliance in 4 years.

 

You cannot have a 10 baggers in HLL and ITC since there are no risks markets are all about risks and returns and there is what an investor has to think.

 

I have not played this game as long as you have but in my span of understanding I have been forced to believe that If you can get the sector corrects half of the battle is won.

 

Let us say that you bought the following 5 companies in 1996 and invested Rs 1 lac each into these stocks. At that time software faced the problem as Retailing faces now people used to raise a question “What after Y2k” our technology friends on this forum would be able to guide us better into it..:

 

HFCL

DSQ SOftware

Satyam Computer

SIlverline

Pentamedia graphics

 

These stocks were bought because you thought that software could be huge. While all the other 4 have become almost zero Satyam has gone up from Rs 7.37 to more then Rs 800. Thus your initial investment of Rs 5 lac has multiplied itself by about 20 times in 10 years giving you a 35% annualized return.  So one could have become a crorepati by getting only 20% of his bets correct but he had to stick to a promising sector. Before any of the critics jump into this argument let me explain the following assumptions:

 

1)      I have not taken Infy, Wipro, and Satyam. Satyam was the more suspicious and the more speculative and that is why I have included it.

 

2)    The other 4 have been taken to show how an ill-informed investor would have behaved.

 

3)    Unlike software where there was no way of knowing about a company you can find out a great deal about a company in retailing, insurance, media through the buy what you see route.And here we should buy only the leaders.

 

Now I had 4000 shares of Satyam with me in 1995 which I sold because I was foolish and I thought it intelligent to book profits. What any investor would do the moment he would have seen his losses increase in HFCL DSQ Silverline and Pentamedia he would have called up his broker and sold Satyam. He would have held on to the duds because “bhav aane par he bechna hai

 

SO I think that the problem does not lie in picking up the sector or choosing the stocks but in getting rid of the winners at the first sign of trouble and holding on to the loses.

 

I am fascinated by the words of Jesse Livermore :Always sell what shows you a loss and keep what shows you a profit I think that this is the most powerful but underused statement in investing startegies.

 
Tell us more about Wangner never heard of that before.


Edited by basant - 29/Aug/2006 at 4:32pm
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Quote BubbleVision Replybullet Posted: 29/Aug/2006 at 4:25pm
Basantji,
As always, a great deal of wizdom on this forum.. Ya it is all about getting the sectors right.. That is why i like the Indexes and not particular stocks.. I make an index if they are not made by the BSE.. I am planning to make a Retailing Index.. What stocks should be included and what should be the weightage's .. Can you help me by throwing light on that.. And also, what sectors, in the long term (10 Years) be 10-Baggers.. in your opinion..
 
I also track all the ratio's of the indexes.. as to what is outperforming the market at any given point of time... That is wht i believe that Research pays... Funda or TA dosent matter.. It is the 20% .. Rest 80% is Courage, Conviction... Risk Management..... and self Control.....
As i would say... any one can make money in financial markets... but you need the stomach to do that....
 
Also we all would be delighted to know more about Wangner....
 


Edited by vikrant.goyal - 29/Aug/2006 at 4:32pm
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!
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Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 29/Aug/2006 at 4:35pm

Would put it up and then we can make the desired changes if necessary.

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Quote BubbleVision Replybullet Posted: 29/Aug/2006 at 4:39pm
Thanks....
Infact we can make all other sectoral indexex also... which we think may be promising...
I like to track indexes as they remove the daily to day stock to stock Volatility and gives a complete view of the sector... A top down view, which is very good as far as i am concerned...


Edited by vikrant.goyal - 29/Aug/2006 at 4:45pm
You can't make money if you are unwilling to lose...It's like willing to breathe in but not willing to breathe out. -- ED SEYKOTA ....Read Disclaimer!
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Quote Ajith Replybullet Posted: 29/Aug/2006 at 5:17pm
         I fully agree with you on all points especially on selling off winners at precisely the wrong time for apparently good reasons.I am hoping for no more than 25% returnns from a stock like ITC.Negative factors which temporarily depress high-flyers have proved to be great buying opportunities.
 In case FDI in retail is deferred indefintely most listed retailers will be huge multibaggers;The threat of FDI is another negative factor that may be supressing PEs providing an opportunity to buy...In any case Wal mart and Carefour have not dominated all the foreign markets..they have pulled out of some markets due to strong competition from locals...in the middle east the Indians-run Lulu chain is doing quite well(the Lulu chain is entering India)
   When a group of prominent professional money managers were asked who they would choose to manage their personal wealth,Ralph Wanger was placed first.(Warren Buffet came in second)He is the best for small cap stocks - below1 billiondollars  market cap .Further the book is quite relevant in the present market conditions for choosing stocks to buy .You have to read it to confirm and expand your views,I feel.


Edited by Ajith - 29/Aug/2006 at 6:23pm
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