Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin

Large Cap Blue Chips
 The Equity Desk Forum :Investment Ideas - Creating winning portfolios! :Large Cap Blue Chips
Message Icon Topic: Reliance Industries – Why is it being re-rated? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 83 Next >>
Author Message
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Topic: Reliance Industries – Why is it being re-rated?
    Posted: 23/Aug/2006 at 7:31pm

Reliance Industries – Why is the stock being re-rated?

Globally conglomerates trade at a discount to focused players. In India we have seen the same thing happen. But some anomalies tend to come up many times. Markets love old companies getting into new businesses. Now for an established company getting into a new business would lead to a de-rating of the stock. I am trying to base my case on Reliance’s proposed foray into SEZ, Retailing, media and a host of other ventures that appear to be very positive from the markets point of view.

Contrast this with a situation if British Petroleum or Exxon Mobil would have indicated its plans to get into retailing or property development. The stocks would have been slammed down very hard.

Analysts tend to value companies in two ways (a) The discounted cash flow method which had been a Warren Buffet favorite and (b) The EPS/ PE way. I have tried to look at how both these valuations would lead to de-rating of the stock in case of the proposed forays. Why the market remains upbeat bests me.

The discounted cash flow method: This method works on the premise that companies that throw up significant free cash flows year after year would have their stocks being valued at a Net Present value of these cash flows. So if Reliance is invest9ng Rs 25,000 crores into its retailing forays and another significant amount into SEZ’s each year the company’s free cash flow would diminish and hence the NPV of the projected cash flow will tend to come down.

The EPS/PE method: Either the company uses its own cash or takes on further debt to expand into its newer territories. In both the cases the Net profit will be adversely affected and so is the EPS. In the first case the company loses opportunity cost of capital that was earning some interest and in the second case the company bears additional cost on the debt.

The RoE and the RoCE would also decline..

Still the stock finds new buyers. This has been an anomaly that I have found too hard to decipher. Normally I would back Reliance into an SEZ and Retailing but a logical impact on the company’s financials reveals that the valuations need not increase at least till such time that the investment phase in the new business is over. Then how could Analysts argue on the re-rating of the stocks. I have two opinions:

a)       The new business is a high PE business as in the case of Reliance Industries Ltd. So while all over the world you may have a petrochemical company quoting at a PE of 10 times a Retailing venture could quote at a PE of 20 times. In the anticipation of the retailing venture going on stream analysts try and re-rate the whole PE upwards.

b)       This one is more popular and an analyst would like to include the cash flow right up to the year that it turns positive and then discount it back to present value. The net result would be an increase in the NPV.

While the exact methodology is very difficult to understand the fact is that existing companies getting into new ventures get their stocks re-rated and then the company is classified as a conglomerate. After a while the stock   is de-rated downwards because conglomerates enjoy lower discounting. After that the company announces a de-merger and the stock gets re-rated again! Can some one throw light on what actually happens?

 



Edited by basant - 07/Jun/2007 at 11:35pm
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
Ajith
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/Aug/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1284
Quote Ajith Replybullet Posted: 23/Aug/2006 at 11:18pm

The whole valuaion isuue is quite complicated especially due to the planned IPO which will be of course at a premium.If after 5 or 6 years , Reliance Retail as is generally expected has a market cap of Rs 1 lakh crores what would Reliance stake be?Of course Reliance  valuations will be affected probably positively  by other factors like Reliance Petro,the refining margins,the exploration efforts etc.

In the shortterm will not return on capital employed suffer but the positive impact of mega retail plans may nullify this negative factor.
IP IP Logged
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 23/Aug/2006 at 11:27pm

Yes, i agree but I am trying to raise a point that probably has various explanations one of them being that the market is looking ahead and not into the immdediate future. this is so because in the immdediate future the return ratios /cash flows and everything will be adversely impacted.

Now if the same thing had happened in the West for example had BP wanted to get into retailing or SEZ the markets would have shut the stock down. They would have argued that a company is best suited to stick into areas where it enjoys core competencies. Also I have nothing against Reliance but at the moment the market is not pricing in any execution risks. After all Reliance will not have the first mover advantage and if you pay for the land at the higher rates it will show up in your return ratios.
 
They messed up Infocom and had it not been for their petrochemical cash flows infocom would have been in deep water.
 
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
Ajith
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/Aug/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1284
Quote Ajith Replybullet Posted: 23/Aug/2006 at 12:25pm
 On the execution front I would give the highest rating to Trent. Since my personal time horizon is 6 years I am not concerned about the slow pace of recent years or the declining  operating margins of Trent and my holding is yet to scale up.So also with Reliance the real take off will happen after 6 years and there may be shortterm hiccups but even then not even Wal Mart had they been allowed to would have attemted such a scale of operations.I am however doubtful of the advisablity of Reliance investing in other sectors as well on a large scale simultaneously-what if there is a downturn in the petro cycle?NO ONE IS CONSIDERING THIS..
  It is good that Pantaloon is focussing on just the metros and not trying to fight Reliance all over the country.As it is Pantaloon has a lot to do. 


Edited by Ajith - 23/Aug/2006 at 12:25pm
IP IP Logged
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 01/Sep/2006 at 4:20pm
Market grapewine has it that Biyani and Ambani have reached a settlement in terms of the areas each one would get into for instance as Reliance moves into tier II towns Pantaloon shall concentrate on the Metros.BusinessWorld reported a few months back that at one point in time both were on the verge of getting together then something fell away.
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
vip1
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/Oct/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 492
Quote vip1 Replybullet Posted: 25/Oct/2006 at 12:04pm
Basant ,Reliance is the most cash rich Indian Company with Cash of Rs 40,000 crores while Pantaloon has a negative Cash Flow. Businesses like Retail need tremendous Cash Flows .There was a Cover article in Businessworld with Biyani on the Front Cover , 1 or 2  months back why Pantaloon needs to double its turnover every year just to survive .
                 Reliance main Cah Cow is its refinery  just imagine the Cash it and oil and Gas productions will generate by 2008 onwards when it doubles its capacity . It will not only provide massive cash for expansions but eat into competition
  I think one can definitely rely on Reliance.
IP IP Logged
basant
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 01/Jan/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18403
Quote basant Replybullet Posted: 25/Oct/2006 at 12:18pm
I cannot disagree on that Reliance's project execution skills have been very good Inspite of having such  large Balance Sheet size they are still able tio reflect a RoE of more then 18% on a consistent basis.It remains the number 1 choice for a large cap portfolio. No doubt on that.
'The Thoughtful Investor: A Journey to Financial Freedom Through Stock Market Investing' - A Book on Equity Investing especially for Indian Investors. Book your copy now: www.thethoughtfulinvestor.in
IP IP Logged
catcall
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/Sep/2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1076
Quote catcall Replybullet Posted: 13/Nov/2006 at 7:29pm
TV-18 has reported the likelyhood of RIL entering into the pharma sector, most likely thru' a takeover. i'm not sure if this is such a good idea at least in the short term. maybe it has more to do with the no-compete clause between the two brothers by which once one of them enters aparticular sector, the other will not enter it (I reached there first!!). This is far away  from RIL's area of core functioning. For any other company one would have immediately given a  caution call but with RIL's reputation,it's a tough call. Boarders views are invited on this issue
IP IP Logged
Page  of 83 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.
Bookmark this Page

Join Theequitydesk.com Today!

It’s easy to Join and it’s free.

Here's why members would love to be a part of theequitydesk.com

  • Equity Desk focuses on why to buy shares and invest in share rather than what to buy.
  • Live discussion forum wherein members can discuss the current Indian share Market trend, BSE Sensex or the Nifty Index.
  • Have huge cache of information on Indian and World Share Market.
  • Analysis of Indian stock market, Global events, Investing insights, portfolio management strategies and thoughts,
  • Meet investors from round the globe check their investing strategies share experiences and learn for their experiences on stocks and shares, evaluate opinions on investing in India.

Register now while it’s free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us           Close